View Full Version : Do French Women tend to be less endowed than other Women?
Andromoda893
January 7th, 2004, 06:49 PM
Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
use push-up bras to great advantage."
I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
devil
January 7th, 2004, 06:53 PM
On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:49:21 -0800, Andromoda893 wrote:
> Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
> have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
> she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
> remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
> French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
> use push-up bras to great advantage."
> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
> like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
> not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
Or perhaps they have a healthier diet?
(Putting my male chauvinist hat on: Oversized may have some advantages at
20. But it typically results in disaster at 50...)
Keith Anderson
January 7th, 2004, 07:08 PM
On 7 Jan 2004 09:49:21 -0800, (Andromoda893)
wrote:
>Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
>have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
>she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
>remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
>French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
>use push-up bras to great advantage."
> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
>like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
>not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
>or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
Errr.......... had a lovely French girlfriend for 4 glorious years -
no longer a "feature" but still good friends.
No complaints, as it were.
Earl Evleth
January 7th, 2004, 07:45 PM
On 7/01/04 18:49, in article
, "Andromoda893"
> wrote:
> Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
> have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
> she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
> remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
> French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
> use push-up bras to great advantage."
> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
> like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
> not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
French women are generally not oversized in any sense of the word.
However, you will find more women of larger size in the country side, on
the farms, in Normandy and Bretagne than Paris.
French men are not as "breast oriented" as American, for instance,
the "rondeur" they focus on is the back side.
The real question is whether large breasts the standard world wide
in the human female? Or historically. I don`t see them in Greek or Egyptian
statuary.
The human form does transmit a message of the gender of the individual. The
mature female is recognizable by hair, breasts, hips and bottom at a
distance, and perhaps some body language. Some recent studies show that men
will select women as mates on the basis of hip size, which relates back
to being able to bear children (theirs!). I suspect that hips are more
important that breast size since the later usually end up producing
milk once the child is born.
Freud said that the first thing a human adult does when encountering another
human adult is establish gender. For the male, the female is a potential
mate. Another male is a potential enemy, competition.
Earl
Certainty
January 7th, 2004, 08:03 PM
"Andromoda893" > wrote in message
om...
> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
> like women with no breast...
I can't imagine the attraction of "no breast" as you put it. Petite or
smallish breasts, however, can be quite attractive depending on the build of
the woman. I would think most men -- French or not -- would agree with
this.
Peter L
January 7th, 2004, 08:10 PM
"Andromoda893" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
> have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
> she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
> remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
> French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
> use push-up bras to great advantage."
> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
> like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
> not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
There are probably many less plus sized women in Paris than in any American
cities.
JX Bardant
January 7th, 2004, 08:37 PM
> Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
Yes. They're born naturally without implants.
Peter L
January 7th, 2004, 08:55 PM
"JX Bardant" > wrote in message
...
> > Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
>
> Yes. They're born naturally without implants.
>
Who's born with implants?
>
Runge
January 7th, 2004, 08:59 PM
True !!
"Peter L" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
>
> "Andromoda893" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
> > have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
> > she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
> > remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
> > French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
> > use push-up bras to great advantage."
> > I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
> > like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
> > not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> > or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
>
> There are probably many less plus sized women in Paris than in any
American
> cities.
>
>
>
jcoulter
January 7th, 2004, 09:25 PM
"Peter L" > wrote in news:btho7a$7dpcu$1@ID-
110472.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> "JX Bardant" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
>>
>> Yes. They're born naturally without implants.
>>
>
> Who's born with implants?
>
>>
>
>
>
That was sarcasm,
Peter, please let us not start the who has less sense of humor and irony
thread again.
Thomas Peel
January 7th, 2004, 10:27 PM
Peter L schrieb:
>
> "JX Bardant" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> >
> > Yes. They're born naturally without implants.
> >
>
> Who's born with implants?
>
> >
I thought implants developed with puberty
Peter L
January 7th, 2004, 11:16 PM
"jcoulter" > wrote in message
. 227.77...
> "Peter L" > wrote in news:btho7a$7dpcu$1@ID-
> 110472.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> >
> > "JX Bardant" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> > Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> >>
> >> Yes. They're born naturally without implants.
> >>
> >
> > Who's born with implants?
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> That was sarcasm,
Both posts.
> Peter, please let us not start the who has less sense of humor and irony
> thread again.
Let's not.
>
Joey Balonio
January 8th, 2004, 04:13 AM
Earl Evleth wrote:
> French women are generally not oversized in any sense of the word.
> However, you will find more women of larger size in the country side, on
> the farms, in Normandy and Bretagne than Paris.
Like, for instance, in Brest?
> Freud said that the first thing a human adult does when encountering another
> human adult is establish gender.
It's been pretty well established that Freud's sexual
obsessions and other social problems are not particularly
relevent to the rest of us.
Mxsmanic
January 8th, 2004, 06:11 AM
Andromoda893 writes:
> Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
> have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
> she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
> remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
> French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
> use push-up bras to great advantage."
French women seem to have slightly smaller breasts than most women of
European ancestry, yes.
> Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
They are naturally that way. French men and women tend to have slightly
more slender and delicate builds than is average for Europeans. French
women are relatively flat, and American women have commented to me that
many French men seem scrawny to them.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 8th, 2004, 06:11 AM
devil writes:
> Or perhaps they have a healthier diet?
They do, but their physiques are mostly the result of genes. No
American woman of Dutch and German ancestry is likely to look that small
and slender, no matter what her diet.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Tim Kroesen
January 8th, 2004, 06:57 AM
Remarkable brinkmanship! <g>
Tim K
"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
....and American women have commented to me that
> many French men seem scrawny to them.
>
Jeremy Henderson
January 8th, 2004, 07:34 AM
On 8/1/04 6:11 am, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Andromoda893 writes:
>
>> Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
>> have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
>> she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
>> remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
>> French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
>> use push-up bras to great advantage."
>
> French women seem to have slightly smaller breasts than most women of
> European ancestry, yes.
>
>> Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
>> or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
>
> They are naturally that way. French men and women tend to have slightly
> more slender and delicate builds than is average for Europeans. French
> women are relatively flat, and American women have commented to me that
> many French men seem scrawny to them.
Lets not forget the rest of the stereotypes. French women:
1 Are slim
2 Dress well
3 Smell like heaven
4 Fcuk like rattlesnakes
5 Don't rush off to the shower after sex (see 3)
Have I missed one?
J;
Ken Catchpole
January 8th, 2004, 10:26 AM
"Joey Balonio" > wrote in message
...
> Earl Evleth wrote:
> > Freud said that the first thing a human adult does when encountering
another
> > human adult is establish gender.
>
> It's been pretty well established that Freud's sexual
> obsessions and other social problems are not particularly
> relevent to the rest of us.
His rampant Cocaine habit, on the other hand.......
Tim Challenger
January 8th, 2004, 11:05 AM
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:11:59 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
> devil writes:
>
>> Or perhaps they have a healthier diet?
>
> They do, but their physiques are mostly the result of genes. No
> American woman of Dutch and German ancestry is likely to look that small
> and slender, no matter what her diet.
But that's because all Americans are fat.
--
Tim.
If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.
Tim Challenger
January 8th, 2004, 02:21 PM
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:19:43 +0000, Donna Evleth wrote:
>
> Dans l'article >, Tim
> Challenger <"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at"> a écrit :
>
>> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:11:59 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
>>
>>> devil writes:
>>>
>>>> Or perhaps they have a healthier diet?
>>>
>>> They do, but their physiques are mostly the result of genes. No
>>> American woman of Dutch and German ancestry is likely to look that small
>>> and slender, no matter what her diet.
>>
>> But that's because all Americans are fat.
>> --
>> Tim.
>>
> That's a stereotype. There are many exceptions. I know, because I am one
> of them. I am 5'7" tall, weigh 121 pounds. I am 68 years old. I don't
> think I qualify as fat. But then, since I am naturalized French, perhaps
> that is the reason(-:
>
> Donna Evleth
>
> Donna Evleth
I know Donna, I was joining in the stereotype thread.
--
Tim.
If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.
Donna Evleth
January 8th, 2004, 03:19 PM
Dans l'article >, Tim
Challenger <"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at"> a écrit :
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:11:59 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> devil writes:
>>
>>> Or perhaps they have a healthier diet?
>>
>> They do, but their physiques are mostly the result of genes. No
>> American woman of Dutch and German ancestry is likely to look that small
>> and slender, no matter what her diet.
>
> But that's because all Americans are fat.
> --
> Tim.
>
That's a stereotype. There are many exceptions. I know, because I am one
of them. I am 5'7" tall, weigh 121 pounds. I am 68 years old. I don't
think I qualify as fat. But then, since I am naturalized French, perhaps
that is the reason(-:
Donna Evleth
Donna Evleth
Anonymouse
January 8th, 2004, 04:23 PM
Hi,
well I have some experience in this matter... that is to say buying my
wife some "genuine french lingerie".
my wife is a 34F... and she's hard to fit here... Fredericks carries
nice lingerie in F's, as does http://www.lovefifi.com (and they're
really great folks to deal with).
but finding larger than a D, even a C is a challenge in Paris...
but the women really ARE shorter (so are most of the men... look at pics
of General deGaulle walking in the crowds and he stands a full head
taller than the masses) and more petite so a smaller cup is in a better
proportion than on a taller american woman.
and yes... it is in part how french women WANT to look... it's one of
the reasons they smoke so much is to suppress the appetite and keep SKINNY.
ttyl
akia
Keith Anderson wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2004 09:49:21 -0800, (Andromoda893)
> wrote:
>
>
>>Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
>>have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
>>she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
>>remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
>>French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
>>use push-up bras to great advantage."
>> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
>>like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
>>not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
>>or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
>
>
> Errr.......... had a lovely French girlfriend for 4 glorious years -
> no longer a "feature" but still good friends.
>
> No complaints, as it were.
>
--
>> DERRINGER KIT SIDEPLATES <<
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3650842683
Bob Fusillo
January 8th, 2004, 04:26 PM
In general -- only very general, what with increasing moving about of
popuations -- the further one goes south in Europe, the shorter the legs
and, to a lesser extent, smaller the breasts. The Folies Fergere in Paris
used almost all English women in its famous semi-nude scenes, because it was
easier to find long legged women there -- which is considered more
attractive even to southerners.
But there is a cut-off in the other direction -- many large breasted women
in the U.S. and England complain that there are no really glamorous bras in
large sizes. Victoria's Secret has almost no large bras at all.
Women, birds, and boats-- they are all beautiful in all versions.
rjf
"Andromoda893" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
> have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
> she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
> remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
> French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
> use push-up bras to great advantage."
> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
> like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
> not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
> or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
devil
January 8th, 2004, 04:34 PM
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 03:13:27 +0000, Joey Balonio wrote:
> It's been pretty well established that Freud's sexual
> obsessions and other social problems are not particularly
> relevent to the rest of us.
Hmm... Wishful thinking? Denial?
Earl Evleth
January 8th, 2004, 05:07 PM
On 8/01/04 16:23, in article , "Anonymouse"
> wrote:
> well I have some experience in this matter... that is to say buying my
> wife some "genuine french lingerie".
>
> my wife is a 34F... and she's hard to fit here... Fredericks carries
> nice lingerie in F's, as does http://www.lovefifi.com (and they're
> really great folks to deal with).
The big push in Paris is string underwear, which has to do with maximum
"fesse" exposure. So this discussion should finally get to the bottom of
the issue.
Earl
Jeremy Henderson
January 8th, 2004, 10:40 PM
On 8/1/04 5:07 pm, in article , "Earl
Evleth" > wrote:
> On 8/01/04 16:23, in article , "Anonymouse"
> > wrote:
>
>> well I have some experience in this matter... that is to say buying my
>> wife some "genuine french lingerie".
>>
>> my wife is a 34F... and she's hard to fit here... Fredericks carries
>> nice lingerie in F's, as does http://www.lovefifi.com (and they're
>> really great folks to deal with).
>
>
> The big push in Paris is string underwear, which has to do with maximum
> "fesse" exposure. So this discussion should finally get to the bottom of
> the issue.
>
> Earl
But being in France, this is not just about being sexy, but about
philosophy:
http://paris.indymedia.org/article_theme.php3?id_article=7911&id_mot=27
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
Keith Anderson
January 8th, 2004, 11:40 PM
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:10:50 +0100, Magda >
wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:34:31 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, devil >
>arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
>
> ... On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 03:13:27 +0000, Joey Balonio wrote:
> ...
> ... > It's been pretty well established that Freud's sexual
> ... > obsessions and other social problems are not particularly
> ... > relevent to the rest of us.
> ...
> ... Hmm... Wishful thinking? Denial?
>
>Let dead psys die - once and for all !!
These days, who needs Freud, when all you need to do is call the
Psychiatric Hotline...........
If you're compulsive-obsessive, please press 1 repeatedly.
If you have multiple personalities, press 2, 3 and 4.
If you're co-dependent, get someone to press 5 for you.
If you're paranoid-delusional, we know who you are and what you want.
Just stay on the line so we can trace the call.
If you're schizophrenic, a little voice in your head will tell you
which number to press.
If you're manic depressive, it doesn't matter which number you press,
no-one wants to talk to you.
devil
January 8th, 2004, 11:58 PM
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:40:17 +0000, Keith Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:10:50 +0100, Magda >
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:34:31 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, devil >
>>arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
>>
>> ... On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 03:13:27 +0000, Joey Balonio wrote:
>> ...
>> ... > It's been pretty well established that Freud's sexual
>> ... > obsessions and other social problems are not particularly
>> ... > relevent to the rest of us.
>> ...
>> ... Hmm... Wishful thinking? Denial?
>>
>>Let dead psys die - once and for all !!
>
> These days, who needs Freud, when all you need to do is call the
> Psychiatric Hotline...........
>
> If you're compulsive-obsessive, please press 1 repeatedly.
>
> If you have multiple personalities, press 2, 3 and 4.
>
> If you're co-dependent, get someone to press 5 for you.
>
> If you're paranoid-delusional, we know who you are and what you want.
> Just stay on the line so we can trace the call.
>
> If you're schizophrenic, a little voice in your head will tell you
> which number to press.
>
> If you're manic depressive, it doesn't matter which number you press,
> no-one wants to talk to you.
Then there is Oprah. (Although I suspect Freud would be proud of her.
She comes across as having read him *and having understood.*)
pmlt
January 9th, 2004, 12:15 AM
On 7 Jan 2004 09:49:21 -0800, (Andromoda893)
wrote:
>Hello, I have a question for those of you who have been to France. I
>have a friend that recently came back from Paris, and she said that
>she couldn't find any larger bras to purchase in the lingerie shops. I
>remember reading that Anne Cole, a top swimsuit designer saying that
>French women, " had short legs and no bosom to speak of, though they
>use push-up bras to great advantage."
> I have heard that there are some men in France who, (supposedly)
>like women with no breast, though I don't if that is really true or
>not. Are French women born naturally with this boyish type of figure,
>or is it just how french women themselves prefer to look?
Obvious spam... try to ask Brigitte Bardot or Offelie Winter about
that.
pmlt
January 9th, 2004, 12:21 AM
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:26:39 GMT, "Bob Fusillo" >
wrote:
>In general -- only very general, what with increasing moving about of
>popuations -- the further one goes south in Europe, the shorter the legs
>and, to a lesser extent, smaller the breasts.
Talk about smaller breasts in Italy. Stereotypes do not show a
reality.
Bob Fusillo
January 9th, 2004, 03:50 AM
It is an anthropological stereotype, not altogther a cultural
one --anthropologists classify the Mediterranean figure -- short legs, low
breast line-- as averse to the Nordic: long legs, high breasts. Happily,
they are all women.
rj
"pmlt" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:26:39 GMT, "Bob Fusillo" >
> wrote:
>
> >In general -- only very general, what with increasing moving about of
> >popuations -- the further one goes south in Europe, the shorter the legs
> >and, to a lesser extent, smaller the breasts.
>
> Talk about smaller breasts in Italy. Stereotypes do not show a
> reality.
>
>
>
Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Tim Challenger writes:
> But that's because all Americans are fat.
Not all, just the majority.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 12:10 AM
Anonymouse writes:
> ... but the women really ARE shorter ...
Not true. The average heights of adult French and American women are
almost identical (about 5'4").
> ... (so are most of the men... look at pics
> of General deGaulle walking in the crowds and he stands a full head
> taller than the masses) ...
He was very tall.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 12:11 AM
devil writes:
> Hmm... Wishful thinking? Denial?
Neither. Freud spent his life projecting the sexual and personal
-hygiene hangups of himself and his entourage onto the entire human
species, even though they were only applicable to a tiny microcosm of
European society.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Tim Kroesen writes:
> Remarkable brinkmanship! <g>
I don't understand.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 12:13 AM
Jeremy Henderson writes:
> Lets not forget the rest of the stereotypes. French women:
>
> 1 Are slim
> 2 Dress well
> 3 Smell like heaven
> 4 Fcuk like rattlesnakes
> 5 Don't rush off to the shower after sex (see 3)
The first two are correct stereotypes. They do not have any particular
smell that I'm aware of. I don't have any information on 4 and 5, but I
know that many French women take regular showers (especially those under
age 40 or so).
--
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devil
January 10th, 2004, 12:23 AM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:11:48 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
> devil writes:
>
>> Hmm... Wishful thinking? Denial?
>
> Neither. Freud spent his life projecting the sexual and personal
> -hygiene hangups of himself and his entourage onto the entire human
> species, even though they were only applicable to a tiny microcosm of
> European society.
Tiny microcosm? Think again.
Denial? Wishful thinking?
pmlt
January 10th, 2004, 01:36 AM
Alright perhaps I'm the one who knows almost all the exceptions to the
anthropological stereotype. Nordic women are taller, that's a fact.
That makes them have longer legs, that's a consequence of the first
one. About breasts, natural ones, you'll find a bit of everything
everywhere. My statement is not "anthropological" but maybe like said
I just know the exceptions.
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:50:59 GMT, "Bob Fusillo" > o
wrote:
>It is an anthropological stereotype, not altogther a cultural
>one --anthropologists classify the Mediterranean figure -- short legs, low
>breast line-- as averse to the Nordic: long legs, high breasts. Happily,
>they are all women.
>rj
>
poldy
January 10th, 2004, 01:50 AM
In article >,
"Peter L" > wrote:
> There are probably many less plus sized women in Paris than in any American
> cities.
Yeah isn't that one of the mysteries? The cuisine has a lot of
fat-heavy dishes but the women are slender?
devil
January 10th, 2004, 01:52 AM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:50:05 +0000, poldy wrote:
> In article >,
> "Peter L" > wrote:
>
>> There are probably many less plus sized women in Paris than in any American
>> cities.
>
> Yeah isn't that one of the mysteries? The cuisine has a lot of
> fat-heavy dishes but the women are slender?
Just try cutting soft drinks for a start.
Andromoda893
January 10th, 2004, 04:01 AM
> French women seem to have slightly smaller breasts than most women of
> European ancestry, yes.
I had a feeling this was true about French Women compared to
American Women but I didn't know that they were small compared to
other European Women in Europe as well.
>
> They are naturally that way. French men and women tend to have slightly
> more slender and delicate builds than is average for Europeans. French
> women are relatively flat, and American women have commented to me that
> many French men seem scrawny to them.
I have heard it may be due to the way they eat but I think you
mentioned that it was more due to their genes before, so I guess that
wasn't really true for the most part. By the way, when you talk about
French Women being flat do you mean the French women in France or
French Women in general?
Andromoda893
January 10th, 2004, 04:14 AM
Anonymouse > wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
> well I have some experience in this matter... that is to say buying my
> wife some "genuine french lingerie".
>
> my wife is a 34F... and she's hard to fit here... Fredericks carries
> nice lingerie in F's, as does http://www.lovefifi.com (and they're
> really great folks to deal with).
>
> but finding larger than a D, even a C is a challenge in Paris...
>
> but the women really ARE shorter (so are most of the men... look at pics
> of General deGaulle walking in the crowds and he stands a full head
> taller than the masses) and more petite so a smaller cup is in a better
> proportion than on a taller american woman.
>
> and yes... it is in part how french women WANT to look... it's one of
> the reasons they smoke so much is to suppress the appetite and keep SKINNY.
>
I think I remember you writing about this while back, if I'm not
mistaken. Sounds like your wife had the same problems my friend did.
And while it may be partly because of french women wanting to maintain
that look, it might also be partly because they are not as buxom as
other european and american women. Maby that is why a womans bottom is
more popular there than a womans bustline?
nobody@nohow.com
January 10th, 2004, 06:12 AM
> But there is a cut-off in the other direction -- many large breasted women
> in the U.S. and England complain that there are no really glamorous bras in
> large sizes. Victoria's Secret has almost no large bras at all.
Victorias cut's off at a DD and not many of those.
Women with exceptional figures go to fredericks.com and lovefifi.com
love fifi was started by the senior designer ("amanda") from fredericks
who was downsized to help make budget when they filled a chapter 11.
nice stuff and great service. http://www.lovefifi.com/
--
>>>=-> Derringer Kit Sideplates <-=<<<
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3650842683
nobody@nohow.com
January 10th, 2004, 06:14 AM
Hi,
but then why in the pics of him with american and british officers is he
of "average" height?
>>... (so are most of the men... look at pics
>>of General deGaulle walking in the crowds and he stands a full head
>>taller than the masses) ...
>
>
> He was very tall.
>
--
>>>=-> Derringer Kit Sideplates <-=<<<
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3650842683
nobody@nohow.com
January 10th, 2004, 06:16 AM
and walk more.
walk to the market
walk to the metro
walk to the office (from the metro)
devil wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:50:05 +0000, poldy wrote:
>
>
>>In article >,
>> "Peter L" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There are probably many less plus sized women in Paris than in any American
>>>cities.
>>
>>Yeah isn't that one of the mysteries? The cuisine has a lot of
>>fat-heavy dishes but the women are slender?
>
>
> Just try cutting soft drinks for a start.
>
>
--
>>>=-> Derringer Kit Sideplates <-=<<<
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3650842683
Jeremy Henderson
January 10th, 2004, 09:48 AM
On 10/1/04 9:40 am, in article ,
"Magda" > wrote:
> Climb stairs.
... in skirts.
My favourite.
J;
Jeremy Henderson
January 10th, 2004, 09:52 AM
On 10/1/04 1:52 am, in article ,
"devil" > wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:50:05 +0000, poldy wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> "Peter L" > wrote:
>>
>>> There are probably many less plus sized women in Paris than in any American
>>> cities.
>>
>> Yeah isn't that one of the mysteries? The cuisine has a lot of
>> fat-heavy dishes but the women are slender?
>
> Just try cutting soft drinks for a start.
And eating between meals. The French just don't do it (generalisation
alert!). There is a chocolate machine in my office building, but the only
people I ever see using it are the expat Brits.
J;
Jeremy Henderson
January 10th, 2004, 09:53 AM
On 10/1/04 1:36 am, in article ,
"pmlt" > wrote:
> Alright perhaps I'm the one who knows almost all the exceptions to the
> anthropological stereotype. Nordic women are taller, that's a fact.
> That makes them have longer legs, that's a consequence of the first
> one. About breasts, natural ones, you'll find a bit of everything
> everywhere. My statement is not "anthropological" but maybe like said
> I just know the exceptions.
I'll make a definite point of making the appropriate
anthropologically-inspired observations in future ...
J;
Earl Evleth
January 10th, 2004, 10:04 AM
On 10/01/04 0:10, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Anonymouse writes:
>
>> ... but the women really ARE shorter ...
>
> Not true. The average heights of adult French and American women are
> almost identical (about 5'4").
>
An interesting side point is that many people feel that Blacks in America
are taller, on the average than Whites. This impression is gathered from
watching basketball.
In fact Whites and Blacks have the same average height in the US.
The current feeling is that Blacks are better natural athletes, look
at "all of them" in sports. Again, this might just be a matter of
selection. At one time, the 1920s, Blacks were considered inferior
to Whites in athletics. The fact that they were systematically excluded
from competing with Whites was not taken into account.
Even so, one notices today, there are not great black cyclists? Are
they not physically fitted for being great cyclists? Ironically,
largely forgotten in American history are the exploits of Major Taylor
around 1900, in the US, Europe and Australia.
Particularly interesting were Taylor`s performance and acceptance in
France at that time.
There is a good book by an English sports writer on Taylor.
"Major Taylor: The Extraordinary Career of a Champion Bicycle Racer
by Andrew Ritchie"
The web is also full of information on Taylor, just ask for it: "Major
Taylor". He is still remembered in Indiana.
Basically, most population groups, if large enough, have a wide
variety of physiques, and they will tend to have the same fraction
of geniuses and idiots, the tall and the short, the fast and the slow.
Earl
Earl Evleth
January 10th, 2004, 10:18 AM
On 10/01/04 0:13, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> The first two are correct stereotypes. They do not have any particular
> smell that I'm aware of. I don't have any information on 4 and 5, but I
> know that many French women take regular showers (especially those under
> age 40 or so).
Some take baths, in fact, soaking in a hot bath in the winter time is
better than being chilled by a shower!
There is a message
Napoleon to Josephine
"I 'll be arriving in Paris tomorrow evening," Napoleon wrote to Josephine.
"Don't wash."
"Napoleon wasn't the only connoisseur of a strong sniff. In France, armpits
were once known as "spice boxes." A Victorian courtesan made a fortune by
selling handkerchiefs kept between her bed sheets. And some Austrian girls
still wear slices of apples under their arms to create fragrant gifts for
their suitors."
So the human stench has some appreciation. I think it is about
human pheromones. Commercialized now, the word gets 168,000
Google hits.
Earl
Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 01:08 PM
writes:
> but then why in the pics of him with american and british officers is he
> of "average" height?
Look again. He was 6'5" tall. In the pictures I see, he is clearly
taller than just about everyone around him.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 01:14 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> An interesting side point is that many people feel that Blacks in America
> are taller, on the average than Whites. This impression is gathered from
> watching basketball.
They _are_ very slightly taller. That's why they are so much more
prominent in basketball. A slight difference in mean height translates
to a large difference at the upper and lower extremes of height, so even
though the average heights aren't too much different, the tallest people
are slightly more likely to be black.
> The current feeling is that Blacks are better natural athletes, look
> at "all of them" in sports. Again, this might just be a matter of
> selection.
No, this is true as well. American blacks tend to be slightly larger,
heavier, and taller than American whites. Not all blacks in this world
are this way, but perhaps American blacks are descended from slaves who
were selected specifically for these characteristics. In any case, the
advantages of this small general difference in the extreme case of
athletics is obvious.
> Even so, one notices today, there are not great black cyclists?
Different sports require different abilities, and slight racial
differences give one race or another advantages or disadvantages for
each ability. Blacks have an advantage where height or strength are
handy (and that covers a lot of ground!), but not necessarily in other
domains. Endurance events seem to favor whites a lot more. The same
muscles that are great for sprints are difficult to keep nourished over
endurance events that may last for hours.
> Are they not physically fitted for being great cyclists?
Possibly.
> Basically, most population groups, if large enough, have a wide
> variety of physiques, and they will tend to have the same fraction
> of geniuses and idiots, the tall and the short, the fast and the slow.
No, there are clear-cut differences in many characteristics among ethnic
groups. An obvious example is skin color, but there are many other
differences. The larger the populations compared, the more consistent
the differences are (they vanish among individuals, or nearly so).
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 01:14 PM
devil writes:
> Tiny microcosm?
Yes, a tiny microcosm of Europe that reflected the warped upbringings of
some parts of European society (e.g., in Vienna).
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 01:15 PM
poldy writes:
> Yeah isn't that one of the mysteries? The cuisine has a lot of
> fat-heavy dishes but the women are slender?
No mystery. Calories are what count, not the percentage of fat in the
diet.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 01:16 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> So the human stench has some appreciation. I think it is about
> human pheromones.
The natural odors are pleasant-smelling to human beings. It's the odors
produced by bacteria in people who just don't wash often enough that can
become very rank and unpleasant. Even someone who is squeaky clean will
have some odor, but it won't be an unpleasant odor.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Andromoda893 writes:
> By the way, when you talk about French Women being flat
> do you mean the French women in France or French Women
> in general?
That's pretty much the same thing. If their ancestry is largely
metropolitan French, they tend to have small- to medium-sized breasts.
--
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Earl Evleth
January 10th, 2004, 04:26 PM
On 10/01/04 13:14, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>> An interesting side point is that many people feel that Blacks in America
>> are taller, on the average than Whites. This impression is gathered from
>> watching basketball.
>
> They _are_ very slightly taller. That's why they are so much more
> prominent in basketball. A slight difference in mean height translates
> to a large difference at the upper and lower extremes of height, so even
> though the average heights aren't too much different, the tallest people
> are slightly more likely to be black.
Maxi, you never reference your stuff!
One set of numbers for the USA is given in.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/hgtmal.pdf Looking at 20 and over.
The study showed that the mean height for Whites and Blacks was 69.5 and
69.3 respectively, with Mexican Americans around 66.8.
If one is looking for tall Whites and Blacks, the 95th percentile
of each group, the numbers are the same, the 74.1 and 74.1 inches.
Hélas, Maxi, your expertise is challenged. :-)
None of what your wrote afterwards (or before) was documented to I assume
that you are writing off the top of your head.
You know the web has good research resources. Try and use them.
Earl
Earl Evleth
January 10th, 2004, 04:32 PM
On 10/01/04 13:16, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> The natural odors are pleasant-smelling to human beings. It's the odors
> produced by bacteria in people who just don't wash often enough that can
> become very rank and unpleasant. Even someone who is squeaky clean will
> have some odor, but it won't be an unpleasant odor.
Years ago Scientific American had a long article on skin ecology
and I remember that a problem with over washing is that is changes the pH
of the skin and actually promotes staf infections.
I expect that there is a optimum washing frequency, too much or too little
will produce problems.
Earl
devil
January 10th, 2004, 05:19 PM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:40:57 +0100, Magda wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:16:03 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, arranged some
> electrons, so they looked like this :
>
> ... and walk more.
> ...
> ... walk to the market
> ...
> ... walk to the metro
> ...
> ... walk to the office (from the metro)
>
> Climb stairs.
I am surprised no one has mentioned yet having sex once in a while.
(Or are we back to the Freud thread?)
devil
January 10th, 2004, 05:47 PM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:14:45 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
> devil writes:
>
>> Tiny microcosm?
>
> Yes, a tiny microcosm of Europe that reflected the warped upbringings of
> some parts of European society (e.g., in Vienna).
You have not read the man, have you? After going thru "The Interpretation
of Dreams," (not necessarily the exact title), I started looking at the
folks around in a different way. An eye opener, believe me.
What percentage of (say American) females do you think truly enjoy sex? To
what extent does guilt stand in the way?
What percentage of the boys are unable to perform with a female whom they
respect? (Reconciling "purity" of the mother figure and the necessity of
sex to make her a mother.)
devil
January 10th, 2004, 07:16 PM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:07:09 +0100, Magda wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:19:47 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, devil >
> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
>
> ... On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:40:57 +0100, Magda wrote:
> ...
> ... > On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:16:03 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, arranged some
> ... > electrons, so they looked like this :
> ... >
> ... > ... and walk more.
> ... > ...
> ... > ... walk to the market
> ... > ...
> ... > ... walk to the metro
> ... > ...
> ... > ... walk to the office (from the metro)
> ... >
> ... > Climb stairs.
> ...
> ... I am surprised no one has mentioned yet having sex once in a while.
>
> Well, you only mentioned soft drinks !
No. I mentioned soft drinks *for a start.*
(Not sure sex is a viable proposition until reaching a reasonable shape
first?)
Keith Anderson
January 10th, 2004, 07:29 PM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:47:26 GMT, devil > wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:14:45 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> devil writes:
>>
>>> Tiny microcosm?
>>
>> Yes, a tiny microcosm of Europe that reflected the warped upbringings of
>> some parts of European society (e.g., in Vienna).
>
>You have not read the man, have you? After going thru "The Interpretation
>of Dreams," (not necessarily the exact title), I started looking at the
>folks around in a different way. An eye opener, believe me.
>
>What percentage of (say American) females do you think truly enjoy sex? To
>what extent does guilt stand in the way?
>
>What percentage of the boys are unable to perform with a female whom they
>respect? (Reconciling "purity" of the mother figure and the necessity of
>sex to make her a mother.)
Might be worth having a read of the books of Alice Miller, a Swiss
psychotherapist who thinks that some of Freud's theories were ways of
him denying the reality of sexual abuse of his female clients..
Try "For Your Own Good"
"The Drama of the Gifted Child"
Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 08:29 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> Maxi, you never reference your stuff!
I never see any reason to, and I don't record references, anyway.
> One set of numbers for the USA is given in.
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/hgtmal.pdf Looking at 20 and over.
The sample is extremely small, and the methodology is not given.
> None of what your wrote afterwards (or before) was documented to I assume
> that you are writing off the top of your head.
I'm writing from memory.
--
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Mxsmanic
January 10th, 2004, 08:31 PM
devil writes:
> You have not read the man, have you?
A _long_ time ago, I did, although not very much. He was hugely
influenced by his own psychological problems, and he was reassured in
his analyses by the similar problems of those around him. But many of
his findings are not generally applicable.
> What percentage of (say American) females do you think
> truly enjoy sex?
I've never seen any figures I'd consider reliable.
> What percentage of the boys are unable to perform with a female whom they
> respect?
What sort of performance are they giving?
> Reconciling "purity" of the mother figure and the necessity of
> sex to make her a mother.
Have you read _Worlds in Collision_?
--
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Jeremy Henderson
January 10th, 2004, 09:45 PM
On 10/1/04 10:51 am, in article ,
"Magda" > wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:53:44 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, Jeremy Henderson
> > arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
>
> ... On 10/1/04 1:36 am, in article ,
> ... "pmlt" > wrote:
> ...
> ... > Alright perhaps I'm the one who knows almost all the exceptions to the
> ... > anthropological stereotype. Nordic women are taller, that's a fact.
> ... > That makes them have longer legs, that's a consequence of the first
> ... > one. About breasts, natural ones, you'll find a bit of everything
> ... > everywhere. My statement is not "anthropological" but maybe like said
> ... > I just know the exceptions.
> ...
> ... I'll make a definite point of making the appropriate
> ... anthropologically-inspired observations in future ...
> ...
> ... J;
>
> You misspelled "experiences", maybe ?
I wish. In an alternate universe maybe ...
J;
Jeremy Henderson
January 10th, 2004, 09:52 PM
On 10/1/04 1:14 pm, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
[...]
> No, this is true as well. American blacks tend to be slightly larger,
> heavier, and taller than American whites. Not all blacks in this world
> are this way, but perhaps American blacks are descended from slaves who
> were selected specifically for these characteristics. In any case, the
> advantages of this small general difference in the extreme case of
> athletics is obvious.
Maybe I'm just living in ignorance and prejudice here, but I would have
thought it obvious that there are differences between races that have
implications for sports. For example Ethiopians and Kenyans dominating long
distance running. West Africans (and their descendents?) seem to be heavier
built and do better in sprints.
>> Even so, one notices today, there are not great black cyclists?
[...]
>> Are they not physically fitted for being great cyclists?
I can imagine that West Africans are possibly not (and swimming, too?),
since lightness is an advantage, but also there is a social aspect -
different sports have different attractions to different ethnic groups.
J;
Dave Smith
January 10th, 2004, 09:55 PM
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> but then why in the pics of him with american and british officers is he
> of "average" height?
You must be thinking of someone else. I have seen lots of pictures of
DeGaulle with other generals and he was always much taller than the others.
>
>
> >>... (so are most of the men... look at pics
> >>of General deGaulle walking in the crowds and he stands a full head
> >>taller than the masses) ...
> >
> >
> > He was very tall.
Earl Evleth
January 10th, 2004, 10:01 PM
On 10/01/04 20:29, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>> Maxi, you never reference your stuff!
>
> I never see any reason to, and I don't record references, anyway.
You don`t have too, many are accessible by the web. The one I cited
I had posted before, so I had it at hand. Not in my files but
a google group search and a key word will bring up immediately
that information.
Basically, Maxi, you don`t seem to be organized.
>> One set of numbers for the USA is given in.
>> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/hgtmal.pdf Looking at 20 and over.
>
> The sample is extremely small, and the methodology is not given.
It is CDC data, and I seem to remember the methodology given?
Basically, this data is not recorded by a Fed Gov agency on a regular
basis so a large number of Whites and Blacks are not monitored
and that makes the data weak.
>> None of what your wrote afterwards (or before) was documented to I
assume
>> that you are writing off the top of your head.
>
> I'm writing from memory.
Memory if faulty and plastic, it changes with time.
I am married to a woman who keeps a personal diary and has for
over 40 years. A number of times she has pointed out where I
have fused memories, alterned them etc. So I depend a lot on
the internet, or from my personal library to keep my flying
straighter.
Next, we have a personal friend, another academic, who has done
a lot of research on race and sports.
His basic conclusion is that there is a lot of myth involved in
supposing that a certain race is naturally superior are this or that.
Lets take the current idea that east Africans are better natural runners
than anybody else in the world. True or not true?
In this area, get you grains of salt out, they will be useful.
Earl
Earl
devil
January 10th, 2004, 10:21 PM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:01:28 +0100, Earl Evleth wrote:
> Lets take the current idea that east Africans are better natural runners
> than anybody else in the world. True or not true?
They train at high altitude.
Jeremy Henderson
January 10th, 2004, 10:42 PM
On 10/1/04 10:01 pm, in article , "Earl
Evleth" > wrote:
> On 10/01/04 20:29, in article ,
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote:
>
>> Earl Evleth writes:
>>
>>> Maxi, you never reference your stuff!
>>
>> I never see any reason to, and I don't record references, anyway.
>
> You don`t have too, many are accessible by the web. The one I cited
> I had posted before, so I had it at hand. Not in my files but
> a google group search and a key word will bring up immediately
> that information.
>
> Basically, Maxi, you don`t seem to be organized.
Good grief - I feel odd taking Mixy's part, but soon you will be suggesting
that the whole of Usenet should now be peer reviewed?
As a matter of interest you might look up Le Monde Diplomatiqye a couple of
months ago which had an article - "Le Monde Selon Google" - describing the
ways in which Google can provide inaccurate information.
[...]
> Next, we have a personal friend, another academic, who has done
> a lot of research on race and sports.
>
> His basic conclusion is that there is a lot of myth involved in
> supposing that a certain race is naturally superior are this or that.
Define "a lot". There may be myths, but there is also some truth, and to
suggest otherwise just flies in the face of logic. There are obviously
differences between races (colour, facial characteristics etc) - period. Why
should these differences be confined to cosmetic features. Are Chinese
naturally superior or inferior high-jumpers? What about medical conditions
that are race linked, like sickle cell anemia, or the higher incidence of
some heart conditions in Jews (search on soc.culture.mideast if you can be
bothered). Do these have any implications for sporting prowess?
> Lets take the current idea that east Africans are better natural runners
> than anybody else in the world. True or not true?
My guess is that they have some advantages that are accentuated by their
education and social forces. What's your guess?
J;
Rejnold Byzio
January 10th, 2004, 10:52 PM
"Jeremy Henderson" >:
> 1 Are slim
> 2 Dress well
> 3 Smell like heaven
> 4 Fcuk like rattlesnakes
> 5 Don't rush off to the shower after sex (see 3)
I could not decipher 4. What the **** is fcuk?
jcoulter
January 10th, 2004, 11:27 PM
Rejnold Byzio > wrote in
:
> "Jeremy Henderson" >:
>
>> 1 Are slim
>> 2 Dress well
>> 3 Smell like heaven
>> 4 Fcuk like rattlesnakes
>> 5 Don't rush off to the shower after sex (see 3)
>
> I could not decipher 4. What the **** is fcuk?
>
a design house French Connection UK LOL (really)
Mxsmanic
January 11th, 2004, 12:40 AM
Earl Evleth writes:
> You don`t have too, many are accessible by the web. The one I cited
> I had posted before, so I had it at hand. Not in my files but
> a google group search and a key word will bring up immediately
> that information.
Why do you assume that finding something on the Web makes it credible?
> Basically, Maxi, you don`t seem to be organized.
You seem to resort regularly to personal attacks when you cannot or will
not provide more cogent and relevant arguments.
> It is CDC data, and I seem to remember the methodology given?
All I see is a page of figures.
> Basically, this data is not recorded by a Fed Gov agency on a regular
> basis so a large number of Whites and Blacks are not monitored
> and that makes the data weak.
I agree.
> Memory if faulty and plastic, it changes with time.
Whereas the Web is entirely reliable.
> His basic conclusion is that there is a lot of myth involved in
> supposing that a certain race is naturally superior are this or that.
Then how does he explain racial disparities in sports?
> Lets take the current idea that east Africans are better natural runners
> than anybody else in the world. True or not true?
Certain Africans are ridiculously overrepresented in certain running
events. That fact cannot be disputed. So how would you explain it?
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
pmlt
January 11th, 2004, 02:18 AM
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:53:44 +0100, Jeremy Henderson >
wrote:
>I'll make a definite point of making the appropriate
>anthropologically-inspired observations in future ...
Come on, that's not funny at all. Stereotypes make this thread bigger
:-)
Dave Smith
January 11th, 2004, 04:06 AM
Jeremy Henderson wrote:
>
> Lets not forget the rest of the stereotypes. French women:
>
> 1 Are slim
> 2 Dress well
> 3 Smell like heaven
> 4 Fcuk like rattlesnakes
That presents some curious images in my mind, and I have to ask if that is a
good thing or bad.
>
> 5 Don't rush off to the shower after sex (see 3)
>
> Have I missed one?
>
> J;
Earl Evleth
January 11th, 2004, 09:35 AM
On 10/01/04 21:52, in article , "Jeremy
Henderson" > wrote:
> Maybe I'm just living in ignorance and prejudice here, but I would have
> thought it obvious that there are differences between races that have
> implications for sports. For example Ethiopians and Kenyans dominating long
> distance running. West Africans (and their descendents?) seem to be heavier
> built and do better in sprints.
I chased down that one too, and found a British investigator, expert in
sports who went over the running abilities of some east African groups.`
Here is what I found and previously posted. But basically, don`t
swallow racist arguments easily, they are too easy to believe.
I should note that I am a scientist by training and conditioned to
ask questions. This whole issue is not that simple.
Earl
$$$$
If you google "sports, blacks, genetics" you`ll get virtually no
academic web site hits. Occasionally one will run into a "wait a minute"
analysis--
for instance ------ from a Brit. A pretty good one and recommending
that we not forget that champions train. We should not short change
them by concluding that is not important and only genes count. Most
recently I have the example of Lance Armstrong in mind-almost pure
grit. We should celebrate that and not skin color.
******
What research tells us about African runners : are they really genetically
more gifted?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<African runners are genetically superior to white runners . Compared to
whites, blacks are better suited for sports which involve short, explosive
bursts of energy. Individuals from West Africa 'make' good sprinters,* while
people from East Africa are endurance types.. >
Those are strong statements. Many people believe them. And implicit in the
statements are two inferences that usually remain unstated: (1) If* blacks
are physically exceptional, then they don't have to go through the mental
turmoil of constructing a rigorous training programme; they can just let
their bodies work their magic. (2) Whites are at a disadvantage. Since
they're handicapped by bad genes, and therefore by their anatomy and
physiology, they will never be able to compete equally with Africans..
Of course, believers in black 'super-genes' haven't been able to explain
exactly how Africans have managed to corner the market on superior genetic
material. When the Finns dominated the running world in the 1920s and again
in the 1970s, no loud voices proclaimed that Finnish runners were
genetically superior. Instead we pondered the merits of reindeer milk and
called Lasse Viren a potential blood doper. When the Brits dominated
middle-distance running in the 1950s and 1980s, there was no talk about
brilliant British genetic material. Rather, we heard about British pluck and
hard work. And when the Chinese women ran wild in 1993, it was because they
were drugged, not because red-hot genetic material had fired up their
performances. But now that Africans are running wild, the genetics lessons
begin. Somehow, Providence has chosen to bless only African runners with
top-quality DNA..
Opinions, not facts
It's time for a reality check. Although beliefs about genetic differences
between African and non-African runners are widely held, it's important to
remember that these beliefs are opinions - and nothing more. There's simply
no scientific evidence to support the idea that African runners are
genetically superior to European, North American, Asian, or South American
athletes..
Why isn't there any evidence? At present, we don't even know WHICH genes are
necessary for topflight performances! Since we don't know which genes are
important, it's impossible to measure the relative frequencies of
performance-enhancing genes in different groups of athletes. In addition, as
explained at the end of this article, the available scientific research
suggests that genetic factors are less important than non-genetic factors
(including training and lifestyle) in determining performances..
Still, when Mr. Gebrselassie of Ethiopia rips through the 5K in a
world-record 12:44 or Mr. Kiptanui from Kenya slashes the 3000-metre
steeplechase mark, the familiar refrain begins again: Africans have the most
slender upper bodies, the thinnest bones, the most rail-thin calves, the
most tent-like lungs and the most reservoir-like, elephantine hearts - all
because they have the optimal genetic make-ups. As a result, we don't need
to concern ourselves too much with how the Africans train, or how they think
about running, or what motivates them to run far ahead of everyone else.
It's enough to believe that they were born with a vast talent which places
them head and shoulders above the pack..
Why? Now ask them how?
Continuing to rely on the 'genetic explanation' for African superiority has
negative consequences. After Africans win the vast majority of distance
medals at the Atlanta Olympics - as they inevitably will - and then return
to their continent, anyone saying that they won their hardware because of
their genes is giving a huge insult to their untiring work and relentless
motivation. And summoning up the hocus-pocus of genetic differences makes
the running community less eager to actually learn something useful from the
top African runners . You've probably noticed that people aren't exactly
beating down the Africans' doors in order to understand how to train, even
though the Africans have blown the socks off runners from the rest of the
world. Instead, we continue to 'learn' from the same old coaches and gurus
who have worked with and trained runners considerably slower than the
current crop of Africans..
That's a bit strange. In the business world, we ask the top executives how
they've managed to make their companies so successful. In the medical field,
we ask the very best surgeons specific questions about their surgical
techniques. But do we ask the Africans for training information? Why is it
so much more convenient to believe that Africans have risen to the top
because of inborn talent?
What the research actually says
There are just three relevant studies in the scientific literature that have
examined physiological differences between Africans and non-Africans, and
none of the three actually looked specifically at gene quality. That's no
surprise; since, as mentioned, scientists don't actually know which genes
code for endurance performance, they can't possibly determine whether
Africans have a lockhold on superior genetic material. We don't know what
'superior genetic material' actually is..
So, instead of looking at actual genetic differences, scientists have made
inferences about genes based on the physiological differences which they
detect between blacks and whites. In a study carried out by Claude Bouchard
and his group at Laval University in Quebec, 23 black male students and 23
Caucasian male students were compared. The black students hailed from
Cameroon, Senegal, Zaire, the Ivory Coast and Burundi (mainly, that is, from
the western and central parts of Africa), while the Caucasians were born in
Canada and were of French descent. Both the Africans and Caucasians had an
average age of 25, weighed about 154 pounds and were about 5'9' tall. All
the students were sedentary at the time of the study..
No gene frequencies were measured, but Bouchard found that both groups had
the same percentage (about 18 percent) of type IIb muscle fibres - the cells
which are critically important for sprinting (so much for the idea that
western Africans have muscles uniquely suited for high-speed running!).
There were two key differences in muscle composition between whites and
blacks: Caucasians had a higher percentage of type I cells (41 vs. 33
percent), while Africans checked in with more type IIa muscles (49 vs. 42
percent). As you know, type I fibres are great for prolonged, moderate-speed
endurance performance, as in an event like the marathon, while IIa cells
promote faster running times in shorter events like the 5K..
Although Africans had more IIa cells and fewer type I cells, we can't say
that these differences are genetically based. For one thing, studies show
that muscle fibre type is not tightly regulated by genes. Also, an
individual's muscle-fibre composition can change over time. IIb fibres can
probably become IIa cells, and IIa cells may be able to become type I
fibres. Thus, it's impossible to say that the blacks' higher frequency of
IIa fibres was a genetic thing..
The only other key difference between the Africans and Canadians was that
blacks had higher concentrations of 'anaerobic' muscle enzymes, which are
chemicals that spur the production of energy during short, intense running,
whereas whites showed up with greater levels of 'aerobic' enzymes needed for
continuous, endurance exercise. Again, there's no reason to conclude that
these physiological differences are caused by genetic differences. The
increased anaerobic-enzyme density in blacks might have simply been the
result of their higher frequency of IIa cells..
The Laval scientists concluded that 'black individuals are, in terms of
skeletal muscle characteristics, well endowed for sport events of short
duration'. That's a somewhat shaky conclusion, since blacks and whites had
exactly the same concentrations of IIb cells, the ones which are critical
for sprinting, although it was true that blacks had higher amounts of
anaerobic enzymes. As mentioned, it was impossible to say why the blacks'
muscles were more tilted toward IIa fibres and away from type I cells. It
might have been genetics, but it might have been the result of lifestyle,
too..
What Tim Noakes found...
In a separate study carried out several years ago, Tim Noakes and his
colleagues at the University of Capetown compared elite black vs. elite*
white South-African runners . Although both groups had similar 5-K times
(about 13:45), the blacks were considerably faster in 10-K and half-marathon
races. VO2max, running economy, maximal running velocity, training mileage
and the percentage of type I muscle cells were exactly the same in the two
groups, but there were some differences: (1) blacks ate more calories and
carbohydrate per pound of body weight, compared to whites, (2) blacks
trained considerably faster than whites, (3) blacks produced less lactate
while running at race speeds, and (4) blacks were quite a bit shorter than
whites (5'6' vs. 5'11') and weighed less (123 vs. 154 pounds)..
Note that only point four can be firmly pinned to genetics. Body height -
although influenced by the environment - is fairly strongly determined by
genes, and body weight tends to follow from height. Eating more calories and
carbohydrate (point 1) is a lifestyle factor. Running at higher training
speeds (point 2) often is part of an overall training
**** philosophy that emphasises intensity rather than volume and is not
necessarily coupled with a particular genetic constitution. Producing less
lactate while running at high velocities (point 3) might simply be a
long-term result of the more intense training carried out by blacks.
Overall, Noakes' work provided no solid evidence that blacks were
genetically different from whites..
*...and Bengt Saltin
The most revealing study on this topic was carried out by the renowned
Swedish exercise physiologist, Bengt Saltin, who compared sedentary
adolescent Kenyans, Kenyan high school runners and elite Kenyan runners with
top-level Scandinavian runners . Saltin unearthed a number of important
facts. First, relatively sedentary adolescent Kenyans had exactly the same
aerobic capacities as sedentary Danish teenagers. If the Kenyans were really
genetically superior, you would expect them to have higher VO2max than their
Scandinavian counterparts (unless their 'superhuman' genes only revealed
themselves in response to training)..
Second, young Kenyan runners trained with astonishing intensity: About 50 to
60 percent of their total mileage was done at heart rates of 90 percent of
maximum or higher! This was significantly higher than the Scandinavians'
total and is much higher than anything European and American runners do
generally..
Third, and following directly from point two, Kenyan runners - including the
high schoolers - were more economical than the elite Scandinavians and also
produced less lactate during high-speed running. This makes sense: one of
the best ways to boost economy is to train fast, and the Kenyans have the
corner on intense training. Also, fast training boosts the aerobic qualities
of fast-twitch, type IIa muscle cells and lowers their lactate output, which
probably explains why the Kenyans have lower lactate levels during strenuous
running. Since high lactates are associated with fatigue, that's a very good
thing! The fourth finding - a critical one for our discussion of whether the
Kenyans have a genetic edge - was that sedentary adolescent Kenyans had
VO2max readings of 47 (the same as Scandinavians), very active (but
non-training) Kenyan teenagers had VO2max of about 62, and seriously
training high school Kenyan runners checked in with average VO2max of 65 to
68. Senior elite Kenyan runners have had their VO2max levels measured at 75
to 85. This progression in aerobic capacities from the mid-40s to high-70s
and low-80s is exactly the same as the one observed in Americans (sedentary
American youth have VO2maxame in Kenyans as it is in Americans! In addition,
as high school Kenyans become elite senior runners , they increase their
number of blood vessels per muscle cell and also enhance the concentrations
of energy-producing aerobic enzymes inside their muscle cells. Those are
natural* responses to hard training and aren't necessarily caused by
superior genes..
Calling all Kalenjins
Proponents of the genetic theory often point out that of the more than 35
tribal groups in Kenya, a single tribe - the Kalenjins - has produced most
of the great runners (Lelei, Loroupe, Kiptanui, Keino, Kiprotich, Cheromei,
Sang, Rono, etc.). The Kalenjins were traditionally a pastoral people who
roamed the beautiful Rift Valley of Kenya with their cattle, so one might
argue that genes which enhanced the ability to move long distances were
'selected' over evolutionary time. In contrast, members of another large
Kenyan tribe, the Luo, have traditionally fished for a living and have
produced few top runners ..
However, political and social forces inside the country tend to favour the
development of Kalenjins at the expense of other tribes. In spite of this,
the recent trend in Kenyan running has been for non-Kalenjins (Ndeti, Kamau,
Kinuthia, Masya, Osano, Asiago, Osoro, Karori, etc.) to become more
prominent as time goes by, rather than for Kalenjins to increase their
dominance. Most notably, the Kikuyu tribe, always a fine source of running
talent (five-time world champion John Ngugi is Kikuyu), is beginning to
produce more and more excellent runners , even though the Kikuyus have not
interbred with Kalenjins and historically were not a nomadic people. In
fact, running talent may be fairly equally distributed among Kenya's tribes.
In other words, the Kalenjin-genetic hypothesis weakens once you take a
closer look at what's really going on. How could so many different groups
of non-interbreeding people produce top runners , if genetic factors were
really the paramount factor?
So what's the real reason?
If genes aren't responsible, what accounts for the difference between
African and non-African running? The African approach to training differs
from the American-European method in a number of ways, including intensity
(Africans usually train more intensely but with less mileage), the amount of
hill training (there's no comparison here; the Africans are almost always
working on hills), periodisation (Africans vary their training more -
favouring big upswings and then gentle troughs; in fact, many Africans take
a month or two away from running while their American and European peers
continue to plug away without a break), and diet (Africans eat more
carbohydrate, less protein, and less fat). Africans also benefit from a
decade-long 'base' period - just running back and forth to junior school at
moderate speeds - before they take up serious running, while Americans and
Europeans tend to simply plunge into competition in more senior school
without a prolonged, strength-boosting build-up..
Many of these factors have already been studied in scientific settings.
We know that intensity is the most potent producer of fitness, yet American
and European runners still preach the merits of high mileage. We know that
hill training is better than flat-ground running, yet American and European
runners often limit hill work to once a week. We know that the African diet
is more conducive to elite performances, yet American and European runners
continue to edge toward more protein and fat..
In addition, our book on periodisation - how to structure training over
rather prolonged periods of time in order to produce the best-possible
performances - is still empty, or - rather - it's filled with lots of theory
and little hard data, so it's perhaps in this area that the Africans can be
our pragmatic teachers. It's clear that the African pattern of very hard
work followed by very thorough rest fits better with human physiology than
the American and European scheme of hard work - and then more hard work. The
human body always reaches optimal functioning more readily when stress is
combined with recovery, rather than when stress is continuously kept at a
taxing level..
The bottom line?
Rather than speculating about superior genes, let's ask world champions like
Mr. Tergat and Ms. Tulu what they are doing in January, March, July and
September, and throughout the whole year. Chances are good that we'll pick
up some useful information from them. Let's face it, there's no evidence
that Africans have a lock on the genes needed for world-record running
performances. After all, we don't even know what those genes are, and (as
the following note explains) most research has suggested that training and
lifestyle - not genetic factors - account for more of the variation in
athletic performances. So let's give the Africans credit for earning their
world-beating performances. And let's learn from them about how to perform
at the best-possible level..
Research footnote
Could geneticists ever demonstrate convincingly that Kenyans are genetically
superior? Of course! They would simply have to identify the genes which are
important for endurance performance and show that those genes are more
prevalent in Kenyan runners ..
This can't be done at present. We simply don't know which genes are critical
for enhancing performance, so we can't measure their frequencies in Kenyans,
Americans, Slovenians, Siberians, or anyone else. Identification of such
genes will probably happen, but not for another five to 10 years at least..
In the meantime, we might try to look at genetic differences indirectly - by
examining physiological differences between Kenyans and non-Kenyans and then
making inferences about genetics. For example, we might compare Kenyan and
American five-year-olds, before either group has had a chance to do any
training (even a smattering of training might make one group look better
than the other). If we found no physiological differences, it would appear
that the Kenyans did not enjoy an inherent genetic advantage..
However, even if the Kenyans were fitter, it would be hard to argue
convincingly that the difference was genetic. After all, the Kenyan kids
would probably eat differently than the Americans (fruits and vegetables
versus Snickers bars), their everyday activity patterns would be different
(Kenyans would gather wood and haul water while Americans would watch the
box), and many of the Kenyan youngsters would probably be residing at
altitude. All of these factors - diet, habitual activity and altitude
residence - can have a strong impact on physiology, so the Kenyan kids' edge
might have nothing to do with genetics..
How about training previously sedentary groups of Kenyans and Americans of
various ages and then observing their responses to training? Of course, we
would try to make everything as similar as possible: Americans and Kenyans
would have the same training history and be the same weight, height, age,
etc. If the Kenyans improved by 30 percent in response to our training
programme while the Americans went up by only 15 percent, wouldn't that show
that Kenyans had special genes which boosted their responsiveness to
training?* Well, no. Again, the Kenyan difference might simply be due to
prior lifestyle factors such as diet, altitude, daily activity, etc. The
bottom line is that you can't look at Kenyan world-beating performances and
say 'Aha! It's genetic!' Too many other factors can account for performance
differences. As the great geneticist Claude Bouchard, Ph.D., says: 'There's
currently no evidence that the Kenyans are genetically superior.'
*
Earl Evleth
January 11th, 2004, 09:55 AM
On 11/01/04 0:40, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>> You don`t have too, many are accessible by the web. The one I cited
>> I had posted before, so I had it at hand. Not in my files but
>> a google group search and a key word will bring up immediately
>> that information.
>
> Why do you assume that finding something on the Web makes it credible?
I am selective and avoid think tank stuff, go for academic sites.
For instance, there is a lot on global warming, but the academic sites
on paleoclimatology are quite good. The special interest think tanks
are not. Some of them put out junk science. So I am selective.
Next, I am a scientist by training, I am use to referencing. When doing
a peer reviewed journal article one has to really go through the literature
and select pertinent references and cite them. One does not cite junk,
however, since a referee will rip "you" apart if you do. So you write
article choosing references and then play the role of the referee and
search out where your arguments are weak. One way of dodging criticism
of referee is to be self-critical in the paper, making some conclusions
tentative etc. It is a an art form.
>> Basically, Maxi, you don`t seem to be organized.
>
> You seem to resort regularly to personal attacks when you cannot or will
> not provide more cogent and relevant arguments.
A constructive criticism. Can do better!
>
>> It is CDC data, and I seem to remember the methodology given?
>
> All I see is a page of figures.
>
>> Basically, this data is not recorded by a Fed Gov agency on a regular
>> basis so a large number of Whites and Blacks are not monitored
>> and that makes the data weak.
>
> I agree.
>
>> Memory if faulty and plastic, it changes with time.
>
> Whereas the Web is entirely reliable.
You really don`t understand this resource when you use the word
"entirely". In not backing up what you say you assume infallibility
on to yourself, that you have no need to learn.
Again, you can do better. Try.
> Certain Africans are ridiculously overrepresented in certain running
> events. That fact cannot be disputed. So how would you explain it?
They try harder, sports is now and open door which was previously closed
to them. Why are Jews so "over" represented in Academia? If they
are so smart why are they not more represented in the higher positions
in the Corporate world. What are the processes of exclusion which kept
them limited in the Corporate world and not the Academic?
Basically, I will bet on social rather than biological determinism any time.
Earl
Jeremy Henderson
January 11th, 2004, 10:00 AM
On 11/1/04 9:35 am, in article , "Earl
Evleth" > wrote:
> On 10/01/04 21:52, in article , "Jeremy
> Henderson" > wrote:
>
>> Maybe I'm just living in ignorance and prejudice here, but I would have
>> thought it obvious that there are differences between races that have
>> implications for sports. For example Ethiopians and Kenyans dominating long
>> distance running. West Africans (and their descendents?) seem to be heavier
>> built and do better in sprints.
>
>
> I chased down that one too, and found a British investigator, expert in
> sports who went over the running abilities of some east African groups.`
>
> Here is what I found and previously posted. But basically, don`t
> swallow racist arguments easily, they are too easy to believe.
> I should note that I am a scientist by training and conditioned to
> ask questions. This whole issue is not that simple.
>
> Earl
The article you posted would be improved if it distinguished scientific
discussion from political polemic. Specifically, it addresses the straw man
of whether African achievements in sport can be dismissed as "just good luck
with genes". I don't remember anyone denigrating African athletes on that
basis.
As I've said elsewhere, it is self-evident that genetic differences between
races have implications for athletes. To take an obvious example Chinese and
Japanese are on average shorter than the Dutch, and hence are less adapted
to high jumping events. I would imagine that there's a whole host of other
differences, some large, some small, that are probably genetically based. I
don't see that as a criticism. Some people are better at sports than others
- what else should we do - handicap all sportsmen to compensate for natural
ability so that all we see on the field is the result of training?
Given small natural differences, these will be accentuated by social
factors. Imagine, for the sake of discussion, that black Americans are very
slightly taller than whites. Blacks may then perceive they have an advantage
in basketball and increased numbers take it up. If more blacks are trying to
play basketball, then you increase the chance of finding the ones that are
actually any good at it. You can make the same argument for tennis players.
(Are British players worse than, say Swedes, or are there just more Swedes
getting the opportunity to play, and hence more chance of finding the good
ones).
J;
Mxsmanic
January 11th, 2004, 12:06 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> I am selective and avoid think tank stuff, go for academic sites.
Their reliability is not necessarily any better. They can't even agree
among themselves.
> Next, I am a scientist by training, I am use to referencing. When doing
> a peer reviewed journal article one has to really go through the literature
> and select pertinent references and cite them. One does not cite junk,
> however, since a referee will rip "you" apart if you do. So you write
> article choosing references and then play the role of the referee and
> search out where your arguments are weak. One way of dodging criticism
> of referee is to be self-critical in the paper, making some conclusions
> tentative etc. It is a an art form.
If it's art, it's not science, is it? But that does not surprise me.
> They try harder, sports is now and open door which was previously closed
> to them.
Show cause and effect.
>Why are Jews so "over" represented in Academia?
Jews of Eastern European ancestry have a much higher average IQ than the
general population. Nobody knows why, but the fact is not disputed.
> If they are so smart why are they not more represented in the higher positions
> in the Corporate world.
They _are_ overrepresented in many parts of the corporate world--it's
just not as extreme. However, high intelligence isn't as important for
these positions, whereas other social factors are more important, when
compared to more academic pursuits.
> What are the processes of exclusion which kept
> them limited in the Corporate world and not the Academic?
There isn't much of any exclusion today.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Mxsmanic
January 11th, 2004, 12:07 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> Here is what I found and previously posted. But basically, don`t
> swallow racist arguments easily, they are too easy to believe.
> I should note that I am a scientist by training and conditioned to
> ask questions. This whole issue is not that simple.
Explain why blacks have lower rates of melanoma, using the same
reasoning.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Earl Evleth
January 11th, 2004, 01:17 PM
On 11/01/04 10:00, in article , "Jeremy
Henderson" > wrote:
>
> The article you posted would be improved if it distinguished scientific
> discussion from political polemic. Specifically, it addresses the straw man
> of whether African achievements in sport can be dismissed as "just good luck
> with genes". I don't remember anyone denigrating African athletes on that
> basis.
On the other hand read other peoples statemente here.
Indeed, the idea that Blacks are naturally superior athletes does permeate
White thinking these days. Hitler`s also since he did not like his
Aryan blond competing against "animals" as he termed Blacks.
> As I've said elsewhere, it is self-evident that genetic differences between
> races have implications for athletes. To take an obvious example Chinese and
> Japanese are on average shorter than the Dutch, and hence are less adapted
> to high jumping events.
Again, diet plays a big role in determining the average height of
a population group. The average height of the average Japanese has
increased by 3 to 5 inches since WWII. That is not genetics.
If you have look at something called the Flynn factor, you will find
out that the IQ (tested) of Americans has soared 20 points in the 20th
century. Better genes?? Better food (??) or IQ tests have not great
meaning (??) over a large time period.
> Given small natural differences, these will be accentuated by social
> factors. Imagine, for the sake of discussion, that black Americans are very
> slightly taller than whites. Blacks may then perceive they have an advantage
> in basketball and increased numbers take it up. If more blacks are trying to
> play basketball, then you increase the chance of finding the ones that are
> actually any good at it. You can make the same argument for tennis players.
> (Are British players worse than, say Swedes, or are there just more Swedes
> getting the opportunity to play, and hence more chance of finding the good
> ones).
As I said, I am a proponent of social determinism but I am not always
prepared to rationalize a particular observation. But a lot of social
factors play a role in sports. At one time, US swimmers were mostly
developed out of those white suburbs which had swimming pools. Some
times accidents happen, the French become good internationally at judo
because some Asians showed up 30 years ago and starting forming
clubs etc.
Now let us discuss tiddlywinks as a sport! :-)
Earl Evleth
January 11th, 2004, 01:47 PM
On 11/01/04 12:06, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>> I am selective and avoid think tank stuff, go for academic sites.
>
> Their reliability is not necessarily any better. They can't even agree
> among themselves.
Sure they can, the global warming "hypothesis" is generally accepted by
those working in atmospheric and climate related areas. That was one of my
scientific interests since I was a modeler of chemical reactions,
some of them atmospheric. Global warming is a consensus view. The
cause of the ozone hole is another consensus view. Evolutionary
theory among biologists is a consensus view.
That does not mean there are no renegades, paid shills by special
interest groups. There are also a number of scientists who might
play the devil`s advocate, and say "wait a minute". One gets
recognition for being on the other side of an issue, even if
it is for the fun of it.
> If it's art, it's not science, is it? But that does not surprise me.
I meant writing the stuff up. Not the basic science. One is a salesman,
"selling" an article. One has to get it by the referees (usually two).
>> Why are Jews so "over" represented in Academia?
>
> Jews of Eastern European ancestry have a much higher average IQ than the
> general population. Nobody knows why, but the fact is not disputed.
In another posting I mentioned the Flynn effect. Are you familiar
with that?
IQs are tricky things. Every underclass group in the world scores
10 or so IQ units below the classes above them. Like the Korean
minority in Japan. In the US, Koreans have the same tested IQ
as the Japanese.
Basically IQ test do not test intelligence, as one researcher said
"they test IQ".
>> What are the processes of exclusion which kept
>> them limited in the Corporate world and not the Academic?
>
> There isn't much of any exclusion today.
In the Corporate World in the US? Well tell me, are there
private clubs in the US which still exclude Jews??
Are you saying the Anglo-Saxon anti-Semitism, which
dominated European and American cultures not that
many years ago, has largely "gone away"?.
Earl
Earl Evleth
January 11th, 2004, 01:56 PM
On 11/01/04 12:07, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Explain why blacks have lower rates of melanoma, using the same
> reasoning.
Have lower rates than whom? Other dark skinned people in the world
or the Swedes?
These are specific adaptations requiring probably a specific gene.
Other human factors, like "intelligence" are not single gene specific.
So one gets a spectrum of distribution within a single population.
Human survival depends both on specificity, in some cases, and
diversity in another. The "diversity" allows the population group
to avoid putting all its eggs into one basket, genetically.
This is the biological equivalent of not painting yourself into
a corner.
Earl
Jeremy
January 11th, 2004, 03:17 PM
On 11/1/04 13:17, in article , "Earl Evleth"
> wrote:
> On 11/01/04 10:00, in article , "Jeremy
> Henderson" > wrote:
>
>>
>> The article you posted would be improved if it distinguished scientific
>> discussion from political polemic. Specifically, it addresses the straw man
>> of whether African achievements in sport can be dismissed as "just good luck
>> with genes". I don't remember anyone denigrating African athletes on that
>> basis.
>
> On the other hand read other peoples statemente here.
>
> Indeed, the idea that Blacks are naturally superior athletes does permeate
> White thinking these days. Hitler`s also since he did not like his
> Aryan blond competing against "animals" as he termed Blacks.
>
>> As I've said elsewhere, it is self-evident that genetic differences between
>> races have implications for athletes. To take an obvious example Chinese and
>> Japanese are on average shorter than the Dutch, and hence are less adapted
>> to high jumping events.
>
> Again, diet plays a big role in determining the average height of
> a population group. The average height of the average Japanese has
> increased by 3 to 5 inches since WWII. That is not genetics.
However, the average height of the Japanese is still much lower than that of
Europeans, and indeed I suspect of Africans who don't enjoy a better diet. I
find it somewhat absurd that you are suggesting that there are not
genetically determined differences between races.
> If you have look at something called
"If you have a look at something called"? - maybe you can find a book with
pictures that I can refer to?
Please condescend to someone else - I don't appreciate it.
the Flynn factor, you will find
> out that the IQ (tested) of Americans has soared 20 points in the 20th
> century. Better genes?? Better food (??) or IQ tests have not great
> meaning (??) over a large time period.
>
>> Given small natural differences, these will be accentuated by social
>> factors. Imagine, for the sake of discussion, that black Americans are very
>> slightly taller than whites. Blacks may then perceive they have an advantage
>> in basketball and increased numbers take it up. If more blacks are trying to
>> play basketball, then you increase the chance of finding the ones that are
>> actually any good at it. You can make the same argument for tennis players.
>> (Are British players worse than, say Swedes, or are there just more Swedes
>> getting the opportunity to play, and hence more chance of finding the good
>> ones).
>
> As I said, I am a proponent of social determinism but I am not always
> prepared to rationalize a particular observation. But a lot of social
> factors play a role in sports. At one time, US swimmers were mostly
> developed out of those white suburbs which had swimming pools.
I think that's what I just said, apropos tennis.
J;
devil
January 11th, 2004, 04:52 PM
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:06:09 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>> I am selective and avoid think tank stuff, go for academic sites.
>
> Their reliability is not necessarily any better. They can't even agree
> among themselves.
Sure they may disagree. But most of the time, it's because they truly and
honestly disagree. (Even occasionally gets ugly and personal; but I
digress.)
In contrast, most "think tanks" have an agenda in the first place. So
what they do is really advocacy.
Quite different standards.
Mxsmanic
January 11th, 2004, 10:44 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> Sure they can, the global warming "hypothesis" is generally accepted by
> those working in atmospheric and climate related areas.
At least for now.
> I meant writing the stuff up. Not the basic science. One is a salesman,
> "selling" an article. One has to get it by the referees (usually two).
Ah ... and salesmen don't depend on the truth.
> In another posting I mentioned the Flynn effect. Are you familiar
> with that?
Yes. But it is not relevant in this context.
> IQs are tricky things. Every underclass group in the world scores
> 10 or so IQ units below the classes above them.
That's because low intelligence tends to put people into an underclass,
since they do not achieve as well as smarter people.
> Basically IQ test do not test intelligence, as one researcher said
> "they test IQ".
That's the folk mythology, not the reality.
> In the Corporate World in the US?
Yes.
> Well tell me, are there private clubs in the US which
> still exclude Jews??
I don't know; they are private, after all.
> Are you saying the Anglo-Saxon anti-Semitism, which
> dominated European and American cultures not that
> many years ago, has largely "gone away"?
Yes. The Second World War got rid of most of it.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Mxsmanic
January 11th, 2004, 10:47 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> Have lower rates than whom?
Than Europeans.
> These are specific adaptations requiring probably a specific gene.
Why are they "specific adaptations" requiring a "specific gene" when
they concern melanoma, but misconceptions when they concern specific
athletic or cognitive abilities?
We don't know if skin color is monogenetic or not.
> Other human factors, like "intelligence" are not single gene specific.
> So one gets a spectrum of distribution within a single population.
So?
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
randee
January 12th, 2004, 04:27 AM
Well if you believe the geologists that the earth was once entirely
molten then it has been slowly cooling since the mantle is now solid.
If the core is still molten iron as has been hypothesized then the earth
is probably still slowly cooling.
Now admittedly there may eventually be some warming as a result of red
giantism if I believe the astrophysicists of my acquaintance, but I
won't worry about it. Even then, it will be a temporary phenomena since
we are immersed in a background temperature of a couple tenths of a
degree Kelvin and will eventually cool to that point.
A problem is that a lot of my 'colleagues' seem to forget their
thermodynamics................
--
wf.
Earl Evleth wrote:
>
> Sure they can, the global warming "hypothesis" is generally accepted by
> those working in atmospheric and climate related areas. That was one of my
> scientific interests since I was a modeler of chemical reactions,
> some of them atmospheric. Global warming is a consensus view. The
Mxsmanic
January 12th, 2004, 05:27 AM
randee writes:
> Well if you believe the geologists that the earth was once entirely
> molten then it has been slowly cooling since the mantle is now solid.
> If the core is still molten iron as has been hypothesized then the earth
> is probably still slowly cooling.
Most of the heat of the Earth's interior comes from radioactive decay of
long-lived radioisotopes, such as uranium.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Earl Evleth
January 12th, 2004, 10:32 AM
On 11/01/04 22:44, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>> Sure they can, the global warming "hypothesis" is generally accepted by
>> those working in atmospheric and climate related areas.
> At least for now.
Until something better comes along is the history of science.
>> I meant writing the stuff up. Not the basic science. One is a salesman,
>> "selling" an article. One has to get it by the referees (usually two).
>
> Ah ... and salesmen don't depend on the truth.
Salesmen don`t get peer reviewed by other salesmen. Our hurdles is
the referees.
>> Basically IQ test do not test intelligence, as one researcher said
>> "they test IQ".
>
> That's the folk mythology, not the reality.
By definition they test IQ!
>> Well tell me, are there private clubs in the US which
>> still exclude Jews??
>
> I don't know; they are private, after all.
Do you have Jewish friends in the US who have
had problems in this regard?
>
>> Are you saying the Anglo-Saxon anti-Semitism, which
>> dominated European and American cultures not that
>> many years ago, has largely "gone away"?
>
> Yes. The Second World War got rid of most of it.
Anti-Semitism mostly disappeared, just like that!
As to the current status of anti-Semitism in the US I will refer you to
a web page
http://www.adl.org/adl.asp
This is the Anti-Defamation League' web page. Although a special
interest group, their stuff is reasonably well presented.
This article on France is germane to Americans, especially
American Jews visiting France. I consider it a well balanced
analysis by a French Jew.
Earl
****
Anti-Semitism in France, an Assessment
A report from Haim Musicant, Director-General of CRIF
(Conseil Représentatif des Institutions juives de France - the umbrella body
representing the organized Jewish community in France)
This report originally appeared in the CRIF English-language newsletter
Posted: December 30, 2003
France is not an anti-Semitic country. Why then have there been so many
anti-Semitic attacks in the past years? CRIF's Haim Musicant tries to
explain in this overview why it took the French authorities so long to grasp
the new reality of anti-Semitism.
A few years ago, in 2001 for instance, I do not think we would have
discussed an issue such as the one on our agenda. At the end of the 1990s,
the Jewish community of France was living in peace. Worrying events did
occur, however in the past three decades we never felt the Jewish community
being questioned regarding its role within French society. The future of the
Jewish community in France was simply not an issue. This situation has
changed in the past three years partly due to the large amount of serious
events that have occurred, pointing at a deep crisis within French society
and due, too, to the comments made by intellectual circles, by the powers
that be, by the media, by the public opinion and by the Jewish community
itself.
Before adding my own remarks, let me give you a brief overview of the Jewish
community of France and its background.
It is a community with a broad spectrum, the first in Europe and second only
to the United States. It is a strong, structured, centralized community. The
Consistoire Central takes care of the religious issues; the Fonds Social
Juif Unifié is in charge of welfare and of education and the CRIF is
representing French Jewry on a political level. CRIF commemorated this year
the 60th anniversary of its creation in 1943 under German occupation, an
offspring of the networks of Jewish Resistance. On this occasion, CRIF
organized a symposium, "Long Live The Republic!" and was invited to the
presidential palace by French President Jacques Chirac.
Our community is alive with many religious, political and cultural trends.
Over 31 000 pupils are attending Jewish schools. Jewish studies become more
and more important, including Hebrew and Yiddish classes. There is an active
Jewish press, four Jewish radio stations in Paris itself and many more in
the provinces, a Jewish television station and a second one in the pipes
plus several Jewish web sites on the Internet. French theatre and movie
industry often deal with Jewish topics. French Judaism is a visible element
of the French landscape.
The Nineties have strengthened the material and symbolic link between the
Jews and their homeland. French President Jacques Chirac in his July 16,
1995, speech commemorating the roundup of the Jews in 1942 known as the "Vel
d'Hiv roundup" officially condemned the responsibility of the Vichy regime
in this tragic event of our history. The Jewish community had been expecting
this official admission of the facts and of the French collaboration with
the Nazis for the past 50 years. It was greeted accordingly.
In 1997, the Catholic Church recognized that it kept silent during the Nazi
Occupation.
The Matteoli commission was appointed to assess the consequences of the then
anti-Semitic French legislation on Jewish property. Then came the Drai
commission - still active - to compensate those who were despoiled. The
compensations enabled the creation in December 2000 of a Fund for the
Remembrance of the Holocaust, chaired by Mrs Simone Veil.
This brief overview was just meant to show where we were coming from, as
compared to the present situation. May be the violence currently endured by
the Jewish community is a backlash in one way or another of the efforts of
compensation and of recognition of what happened during the Holocaust. The
support in favor of the Jewish people is totally focused on the compensation
for the Holocaust. Maybe those efforts have unwittingly unleashed a greater
tolerance to the reactions to the Middle East conflict.
The organized Jewish community strongly supports Israel. The debatable
aspects of Israel's policy do not weaken this support. The constant flow of
French tourists to Israel in general and especially last August proved if
needed the capacity of the Jews of France to demonstrate the strength of the
links binding them to Israel. Many of those tourists have relatives and
friends in Israel and even own flats there. The main Jewish institutions in
France often organize trips to Israel with hundreds of participants. In June
of 2003, CRIF, the Fonds Social Juif Unifié, the Consistoire Central and the
Consistoire of Paris organized a major event, "Twelve Hours in Support of
Friendship Between France and Israel". Over 50 000 people participated in
Paris itself only.
This link with Israel is vivid and deep. The French Jews experienced it in
their daily lives and in an unexpected way in September 2000.
The visit of Ariel Sharon on the Temple Mount and its alleged or real
consequences on the revival of the Intifada spread with an incredible speed
and triggered serious consequences on the daily lives of Jews in France,
still felt today.
In fact, this violence had been brewing for a long time, waiting just for a
right trigger to explode.
Forewarning events occurred in the past two decades: the terrorist attacks
on the Copernic synagogue in 1980 and on the Goldenberg restaurant in 1982,
both in Paris; the desecration of the Jewish cemetery of Carpentras (South
of France) in 1990; the rise of the extreme right-wing in Europe and in
France itself with the party of Jean-Marie Le Pen since the early Eighties;
changes occurring within the French society itself trying to absorb with
great pain a large Arab Muslim community; the discovery by the French of
their true history of World War II, of the war of Algeria and of the end of
colonization; the revival of anti-Semitism clad in new dresses and the
denial of the Holocaust.
Many reasons brought to the current situation in France and in Europe,
leading to anti-Semitic attacks. I want to highlight the fact that the
revival of the new Intifada and the attacks against the Jewish community on
the eve of Rosh Hashanah occurred almost simultaneously in September 2000.
Synagogues, community centers and Jewish schools were attacked and a great
number of buildings were destroyed or burned down.
These attacks occurred in the suburbs of large cities, mainly in the Paris
region and in other areas subjected to daily violence.
Generally speaking, the climate deteriorated. On the eve of Yom Kippur 2000,
a delegation of CRIF called on the French President and on the then French
Prime Minister. I must tell you that we were not heard; we were not at all
understood. We went to state our deep concern following the multiplication
of violent attacks against Jewish communities by suburban louts, most of
them of Arab Muslim origin. Our hosts replied that France was not an
anti-Semitic country, which was absolutely not what we were saying.
This situation prevailed for several months. We firmly condemned it in
December 2001 on the occasion of the general meeting of CRIF by publishing
the list of all the anti-Semitic attacks that had occurred since September
2000. The same evening, we were hosting at a large dinner party the Prime
Minister, the major part of the French government, members of the National
Assembly, senators, and political and religious representatives. This event
garnered large media coverage. In a very tough speech CRIF's President Roger
Cukierman seriously warned about the situation and condemned the lack of
reaction of the government.
The French Socialist party today acknowledges that his friends who were then
ruling the country did not grasp the seriousness of the situation.
I must go back to the causes of the current crisis. I must point at the
obvious inability of the French Left to deal with immigration-related
issues, leading to a deterioration that paved the way for the extreme
right-wing. Arab Muslims are victims of a very difficult absorption process.
The difficulty is stemming from a lack of economic perspective in the long
run and from the lack of means to implement a decent absorption policy.
Could those victims be held responsible for the attacks they have launched
against the Jewish community? The Left had no answer to this question.
The French leaders feared that the Middle-east conflict would spread to the
French suburbs, already lawless areas. An Intifada of the suburbs, so to
speak.
In this listing of causes I must add the extreme left-wing political groups
who served as hothouses in the Sixties and Seventies for today's leading
writers in the French media.
I have to quote also the regrettable statements, exposed by a leading French
daily, of a French academic and an advisor to the Socialist Party, Pascal
Boniface, who made the Socialist leaders aware of Arithmetics 101: political
decisions should be made according to simple accountancy rules, Arab votes
outnumber Jewish votes by ten to one in France, explained Boniface.
I must also say a few words about the devil-like image of Israel's Prime
Minister Ariel Sharon in France, preventing any possible discussion on
Israel's policy and on the Middle-east conflict. One forgets that Sharon's
predecessor was Ehud Barak and that Barak was the man in power when the
Intifada broke out.
A few words must be said about the media's responsibility in the reporting
of the Intifada. The French media contributed largely to the deterioration
of the image of Israel in the eye of the French public opinion. I remember
the case of this young Arab immigrant living in a French suburb explaining
he decided to attack a synagogue after a TV newscast showing the Intifada.
From this point of view, the media coverage improved in the last months.
CRIF, with the support of some intellectuals, helped improving the
atmosphere through targeted actions on the media exposing the bias and
subjectivity of their reports and their serious consequences on the public
opinion and on the Jewish community.
CRIF has been active relentlessly on all fronts, politics, media, trade
unions, institutions, and public organizations. CRIF repeatedly requested
the public powers to increase the security around the Jewish buildings and
also to support the in-house security service of the Jewish community.
On April 7, 2002, a few weeks before the French Presidential election, CRIF
organized a major demonstration all through France with more than 200,000
participants. The impressive crowd of 150,000 people marched through the
streets of Paris chanting its condemnation of anti-Semitism and its support
for Israel, victim of terrorist attacks. It was a very large success.
However, it was a Jewish success, for 95% of the marchers were Jews and the
non-Jewish participation was almost non-existent.
April 2002 was the worst month in terms of anti-Semitic aggressions in
France.
This demonstration showed how isolated we were. We were very far from the
tidal wave that swept through France following the desecration of the
Carpentras cemetery in 1990, with French President François Mitterrand
leading the demonstrators. Clearly enough, all political parties and leaders
could then take part in the condemnation of the extreme-right wing, of
Jean-Marie Le Pen's National Front. On April 7, 2002, we were condemning a
sick and blurry drift of the French society but our voice will not be heard
as long as the image of Ariel Sharon will indirectly be referred to when we
support Israel.
Then came the results of the first round of the presidential election in
France. The National Front's Jean-Marie Le Pen ignominiously ousted outgoing
Prime Minister and Socialist candidate Lionel Jospin. This political
earthquake left the Jewish community between the hammer of the extreme
right-wing's anti-Semitism and the anvil of a new anti-Semitism coming from
the extreme left-wing and from an ideology close to the Arab-Muslim
population.
Jacques Chirac won the second round and was thus re-elected for a five-year
term. His victory put an end to the "cohabitation" (a right wing President
with a Socialist Prime Minister) and led to the appointment of a right wing
government who hurried to condemn the anti-Semitic attacks. These events
thoroughly changed the political landscape but it cannot be said that we are
back to the situation that prevailed before October 2000. In his first
speech in front of a Jewish institution, the new French Prime Minister
firmly condemned the attacks against Jews and stated, "Attacking a Jew is
tantamount to attacking the Republic".
The Prime Minister's concern permeated to all other Cabinet Ministers who
have to deal with anti-Semitism, namely the Minister of Interior, the
Minister of Justice, the Minister of Education. Together with CRIF,
decisions were taken to fight anti-Semitism efficiently. The first results
are already visible. Members of the National Assembly have unanimously
passed a law toughening the sanctions for anti-Semitic attacks. This French
law is said to be the most stringent in the world. I must however highlight
that most of the lawsuits for anti-Semitic slurs or attacks while getting
large media coverage, were thrown out of court. French law can be
interpreted, allows for extenuating circumstances and French judges are
independent. In spite of this, the French Minister of Justice repeatedly
asked the Prosecutors to request "exemplary sanctions".
The police are collaborating efficiently with the Security of the Jewish
community. The police protection is highly visible around Jewish
institutions, schools and synagogues. The level of protection was upgraded
to prevent any terrorist attack. In the past months, the attacks reported
against Jewish property were by no means at the level of those of October
2000, September 2001 and April 2002. One may say that the peak of
anti-Semitic attacks was reached in mid-2002.
In the same time, the situation kept deteriorating regarding the Middle-east
conflict. There was an increasing number of demonstrations in favor of the
Palestinians with people carrying Stars of David daubed with Swastikas,
pictures of Ariel Sharon dressed as Adolph Hitler. Attempts were made to
boycott Israel-made products and Israel's universities. A campaign was led
to prevent the European Union from renewing its cooperation agreements with
Israel. We successfully reined in the activities against Israel's
universities. However the slogans against "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing"
still appeal to militants of all sides and fool a public opinion unaware of
the true meaning of the words being used. The fact that an overwhelming
majority of the Jewish community is supporting Israel is used against it.
While there are no more major anti-Semitic events logged in the monthly
reports, there are daily incidents on a smaller scale involving Jews in
public transports, in the streets, at work, in residential areas and mainly
at school. In other words, anti-Semitism is thriving. For the time being and
luckily enough, there were no casualties, but the situation is tense.
This report is not something I wrote on my own. The remarks and comments
come from the French National Commission for Human Rights. This
institutional body is reporting once a year to the French Prime Minister on
racism, anti-Semitism and xenophobia. It concluded that 2002 witnessed a
worsening of the situation of anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitic attacks
outnumbered racist attacks in 2002. 193 such attacks were recorded in 2002,
six times the amount in 2001. The Ministry of Interior registered 731
anti-Semitic threats. The Commission for Human Rights turned on a red light
following its worrying conclusions, requesting the Prime Minister to act to
improve the situation. In the same report, the Commission disclosed a poll
showing the public's ignorance and indifference to the increase of
anti-Semitic attacks.
It is impossible not to see what is happening at school. The situation has
been thoroughly analyzed in "The Republic's Lost Territories," a book
published under the authority of Emmanuel Brenner in 2000. It is a series of
accounts written by teachers, describing their daily experience. Their
conclusion is the sad evidence of a deep-rooted anti-Semitism in state-run
schools. This issue was picked up by CRIF's President Roger Cukierman in a
powerful speech addressing the Prime Minister, the largest part of the
French government and scores of political and religious representatives, on
the occasion of CRIF's annual dinner in January 2003. Hundreds of copies of
the book were handed out to the participants. Since the schools were named
in the book, no one could decently claim from then on that he didn't know
that Jewish children were prevented from attending some state-run schools
because they were mobbed by Arab Muslim children; or that teachers couldn't
teach anymore their classes about the history of the Ancient Hebrews, about
the Dreyfus Case or about the Holocaust without being ragged by some pupils;
while anti-Semitic slogans are taken for granted by the latter.
The Minister of Education was made aware of this point during a meeting with
a delegation of CRIF led by its chairman Roger Cukierman in February 2003.
The Minister of Education condemned the rise of demagogy in schools, the
partisan use of the Middle-east conflict, the freedom given to the pupils'
anti-Semitic speech and the lack of reaction of part of the teaching corps.
The Minister announced a series of measures to counter this unbearable
situation in total contradiction with the principles of the Republic's
secular school system.
This issue reached the front pages of the French and International press.
Dailies and weeklies wrote about anti-Semitism in schools, anti-Semitism in
general, about the French Jews' "unease" and about the so-called "conflict
with the Arab-Muslim community". There, too, insidiously, semantics went
astray. Until now, the Jews in France were a model of integration into the
Republic and were regarded as French citizens for generations and centuries.
In the eye of the press, they suddenly became again "a community" with lots
of question marks and suspicion at a time when France is asking itself how
it will absorb its large Arab-Muslim community.
Simultaneously, the gap between France and the United States widened over
the Iraq issue. France piled up presidential decisions against the war and
demonstrators took to the streets at such a pace that one may have thought
that the Jewish community would not get away unharmed. And again, we saw
demonstrators with flags, slogans and scarves blaming Bush and Sharon,
Israel and the United States being the Great Satans of a Little
International sacrificing the Iraqi and Palestinian peoples.
In the course of one such pacifist demonstrations, a party of demonstrators
left the march to violently attack a tiny group of Jewish youths of Hashomer
Hatzair standing at the gate of their premises for a Saturday afternoon
activity. The young Jews were spotted because one of them was wearing a
skullcap. Here again, the French government and part of the political class
condemned this particularly violent aggression.
The Jews of France are living against this background. The evil is visible
to the naked eye and medicines cant help. The current French government has
demonstrated its good will and its decisions are providing a slight
improvement. For instance, on the issue of anti-Semitism at school, the
educational system braced itself to come up with tools of prevention and
monitoring of any event that could even look like anti-Semitism at school.
Contacts with CRIF are going on in a spirit of open cooperation.
The same good will and open spirit prevails in other Ministries where civil
servants are working on the issue of anti-Semitism. I personally meet with
representatives of these Ministries in the framework of the monthly
encounters initiated by France's current Prime Minister. The police are also
collaborating with the Jewish community's Security service, in a spirit of
efficiency and good communication.
CRIF is fighting on all fronts, and the battle is tough. On the political
side, we must maintain a fruitful dialogue with the media, with the
representatives of the major religions, with the local communities and with
the trade unions. In some areas, there are breakthroughs; in others, things
move at a slower pace. We do insist upon maintaining two channels, two
directions for the work we have been performing since our creation: the
protection of the Jewish community in France and the support of Israel. It
is not always easy to strike the right balance between both activities. From
this point of view, the large demonstration we organized on June 12, 2003,
"In Support of Friendship Between France and Israel" was a major success.
Over 50,000 people stood at a standstill to listen to an impressive parade
of France's main political leaders - from Left to Right, with the exception
of the extremes - who literally begged CRIF to be invited.
Protect the Jewish community, protect Israel are our two daily and difficult
missions. We are always looking for new ideas and new initiatives. One of
our most successful initiatives is the organization of tours in Israel for
French journalists. The aim is to show them something they have never seen
before: the reality of Israel. Slowly, we start to see a little change and
improvement in the representation of Israel in the media.
Our constant concern is to find out how to pursue a sustained dialogue with
our non-Jewish partners, in France and abroad. We do our best to keep up
with our principles and defend our rights in a country offering an unlimited
space to the Jews. We do not think we are living in France in a particularly
anti-Semitic environment. It is obvious to us that there is a revival of
anti-Semitism in several other countries. There are beyond the shadow of a
doubt sociological and historic distinctive features in France putting us
Jews in a rather sensitive position, but I hope we will have the means to
overcome this situation. Let's not delude ourselves: this goal will be
difficult to reach. We know that crises are cyclical and I hope the current
one will end soon. Allow me to insist upon the fact that the Jews in France
are facing a crisis that is part of a much broader national issue involving
sociology, demography, economy and politics. It would be unrealistic to try
and assess our own problems without replacing them within a larger reality
of which we are part and parcel.
I quoted in my presentation the statement made by France's Prime Minister in
July 2002: "Aggressing a Jew is tantamount to aggressing the Republic." This
statement has many consequences. Had I delivered this speech some years ago,
I would have said, "Jews feel at ease in France and are full of confidence".
Well, confidence is out and this is the time for questions.
Mr. Musicant is Director-General of the Conseil représentatif des
institutions juives de France (CRIF), the umbrella body representing the
organized Jewish community in France.
Earl Evleth
January 12th, 2004, 11:15 AM
On 11/01/04 22:47, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:
> Earl Evleth writes:
>
>
>> Other human factors, like "intelligence" are not single gene specific.
>> So one gets a spectrum of distribution within a single population.
>
> So?
So all of a particular population are not great long distance runners.
One gets a distribution. All Blacks have black skin, in a particular
isolated group, all about the same hue. Some other characteristics
will be specific, hair form, eye color. But talents will be distributed
since multiple genetic factors are involved.
An area of developing interest in evolutionary theory is that of
environmentally induced changes, something which was fraudulently
imposed by Lysenko in Russia but legitimately advanced by Lamark before
Darwin.
Largely, mutations (which Darwin did not know about) has been viewed as
haphazard occurring now and then but at predictable rates. The splitting
of man off from our common ancestor with some primates is calculated
on anticipated rates of mutations of certain proteins. For instance, pig
insulin has an amino acid or two differences from human. These mutations
do not inactivate the function of a particular protein. Man split off from
pig a fairly long time ago (in spite of appearances!).
But the idea that the system itself can speed up mutations via response to
stress and a threat to survival has not been fully investigated yet. Hints
are appearing that it occurs. It just might be built into the genetic
system itself that mutations are encouraged if needed for survival.
I already showed evidence that the average heights and distribution of
heights of White and Blacks in America have converged. Why? Were they
accidentally from the same height gene pool. Or was it achieved by
enough gene exchange in America to produce homogeneity in that area and not
in skin hue? Or is there an adaptation due to an underclass
group converging genetically to match the characteristics of the
upper class? As tall and lighter skin?
So, if we try the social experiment of dumping a million light
skinned Swedes into the tropics, will they progressively over
a few generations, go over to Black skins because of accidental genetic
changes or will it be because their bodies tell them "change" and
get some sun block? Would pygmies grow progressively taller
if shipped off to New York when their bodies said "gotta get taller"
and gene changes occurred to respond to that command.
Mexican-Americans are currently shorter than American Whites or Blacks.
Will that continue over the next 100 years?
I suspect not. I expect them to converge too.
Earl
Mxsmanic
January 12th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> Until something better comes along is the history of science.
Which happens with disturbing frequency.
> Salesmen don`t get peer reviewed by other salesmen.
They don't?
> By definition they test IQ!
By definition they test intelligence. There is very strong evidence to
indicate that they really do accomplish this to a large extent, and
certainly they surpass all other practical tests in this respect
(although a vocabulary test isn't a bad substitute, if an IQ test isn't
available).
> Do you have Jewish friends in the US who have
> had problems in this regard?
I've never asked them. None has ever mentioned such a problem.
> Anti-Semitism mostly disappeared, just like that!
In the United States and many other countries, yes.
> As to the current status of anti-Semitism in the US I will refer you to
> a web page
>
> http://www.adl.org/adl.asp
>
> This is the Anti-Defamation League' web page. Although a special
> interest group, their stuff is reasonably well presented.
What happened to the peer-reviewed journals?
> The organized Jewish community strongly supports Israel.
It does? I suppose one could define any Jewish community that doesn't
support Israel as "disorganized," eh?
The CRIF is about as biased as they come; as I recall, it was one of the
organizations that filed a complaint against Yahoo for publishing
information to which it objected. Why you suddenly switched from the
academic sources that you praised to special-interest groups with strong
and obvious biases and agendas mystifies me.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Mxsmanic
January 12th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Earl Evleth writes:
> So all of a particular population are not great long distance runners.
> One gets a distribution. All Blacks have black skin, in a particular
> isolated group, all about the same hue. Some other characteristics
> will be specific, hair form, eye color. But talents will be distributed
> since multiple genetic factors are involved.
So?
> But the idea that the system itself can speed up mutations via response to
> stress and a threat to survival has not been fully investigated yet.
Back to imprinting on pregnant women, then?
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Jeremy Henderson
January 12th, 2004, 08:09 PM
On 12/1/04 10:32 am, in article , "Earl
Evleth" > wrote:
[...]
> This article on France is germane to Americans, especially
> American Jews visiting France. I consider it a well balanced
> analysis by a French Jew.
>
> Earl
What utter garbage - the usual attempts to conflate "anti-semitism" with
"criticism of Israel". Ariel Sharon is a horrible butcher who deliberately
provoked the Intifada, was democratically elected by the Israelis, and has
pursued a policy of unrelenting barbarity. If the Jewish community in France
were to dissociate themselves from the Israeli regime and its vile actions
then perhaps there would be less anti-Israeli feeling in France. Then the
actions of yobs would be seen for what they are - mindless thuggery - and
not imbued with some special significance.
J;
randee
January 13th, 2004, 06:56 AM
The culprit in this case is theorized to be potassium 40; I forget it's
half life exactly but it's somewhere on the order of a billion or two
years. But it too shall pass.
--
wf.
Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> randee writes:
>
> > Well if you believe the geologists that the earth was once entirely
> > molten then it has been slowly cooling since the mantle is now solid.
> > If the core is still molten iron as has been hypothesized then the earth
> > is probably still slowly cooling.
>
> Most of the heat of the Earth's interior comes from radioactive decay of
> long-lived radioisotopes, such as uranium.
>
> --
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