safety in Nairobi

[Wilson]

The nickname of nairobi is nairobbery. Is it very dangerous to travel
alone? Also, I'd like to go to some tourist spots , such as national
museum, railway museum, international conference, by taxi. Is it
sensible of me to do so? can I go to Giraffe centre by taxi? Is it
very expensive? Thanks

[Peter Gower]

It is certainly very sensible of you to plan to travel around by taxi.
You will find that the hotels often want to escort you from the lobby to
the taxi for safety. Make sure you know about how far you will travel on
each journey, and agree with the driver about the price before you set
out. A hotel will give you some idea of costs. Be very careful walking.
Don't drive with the window open, or the door unlocked. Enjoy!!?
Peter

[Pat Anderson]

In message >, Wilson
> writes
>The nickname of nairobi is nairobbery. Is it very dangerous to travel
>alone? Also, I'd like to go to some tourist spots , such as national
>museum, railway museum, international conference, by taxi. Is it
>sensible of me to do so? can I go to Giraffe centre by taxi? Is it
>very expensive? Thanks
Nairobi is a city and like any city it`s wise to watch your bag, not
wear expensive jewellery, or have cameras slung around your person.
Otherwise, I walk around on my own shopping, going for a cup of coffee
etc. At night don`t walk out into town, the same as any city.
The museums mentioned are an easy taxi ride from city hotels, as is
the International centre. The Giraffe Manor is a bit further and in a
taxi will cost more. You can go with an organised tour with others and
should pay less.
Pat
--
Pat Anderson

[Miguel Cruz]

Pat Anderson > wrote:
> Nairobi is a city and like any city it`s wise to watch your bag, not
> wear expensive jewellery, or have cameras slung around your person.
> Otherwise, I walk around on my own shopping, going for a cup of coffee
> etc. At night don`t walk out into town, the same as any city.

Same as any city???

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

[Er Principe]

> Nairobi is a city and like any city it`s wise to watch your bag, not
> wear expensive jewellery, or have cameras slung around your person.
> Otherwise, I walk around on my own shopping, going for a cup of coffee
> etc. At night don`t walk out into town, the same as any city.

I really do not agree with this.
Nairobi is really, really more dangerous than other cities. In Rome or
Paris, or even London, you can walk around by night without thinking you
will be mugged for sure.
In Nairobi you can never feel safe, at any moment of the day or the night.

Really, Nairobi is definitely more dangerous than other big cities, even
more dangerous than other african capitals where I've been (e.g. Dar Es
Salaam, Antananarivo, Cairo is even better than Nairobi).

It is true that also in other big cities you must take care, in particular
places, about your bag or whatever, but I would never walk alone in Nairobi
by night (or even day), as I do normally in my city (Rome, which is
absolutely safe).

Ciao

Maurizio

[Rita Daggett]

> The museums mentioned are an easy taxi ride from city hotels, as is
> the International centre.
The first three times we visited Nairobi (1979, 81 and about 93) we walked
into town (from the Panafric) and out to the Museum/snake park and felt Ok
about it; we were warned not walk about at night tho.
The last time (2001) the driver of the mini-bus which picked us up from the
airport told us to keep the windows of the bus shut as otherwise things
might get grabbed through the window, and the hotel staff were not happy
about us walking to the museum if we were carrying camera stuff with us - as
there was nowhere we felt it was safe to leave our valuables, we took a
taxi. The driver arranged with us a time to come back and collect us. So I
dont know whether I would have felt 'unsafe' if we'd tried walking.

--
Rita Daggett

[Liz]

In message >
"Er Principe" > wrote:

> (Rome, which is absolutely safe).

[OT]
Mind you, I've never knowingly been ripped off by a taxi driver in Nairobi,
but I was ripped off in Rome last month by a taxi driver taking me from
Termini to my hotel - which turned out to be a 7 minute walk, but he charged
E30!!! The only other tourists we talked to were similarly ripped off
on arrival, so I don't know whether it's one rogue 'official' bloke or if
they're all at it.

Liz
--
Virtual Liz at http://www.v-liz.co.uk
Kenya; Tanzania; India; Seychelles
New Aug '03: Namibia
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"

[kees]

> It is true that also in other big cities you must take care, in particular
> places, about your bag or whatever, but I would never walk alone in
Nairobi
> by night (or even day), as I do normally in my city (Rome, which is
> absolutely safe).

I have been mugged once in my life, in Rome, during the day. Well, at least
they tried to....
I have only been to Rome once.

On the other hand, I have been staying in Accra last summer and walked
everywhere, day and night, without any trouble at all or being afraid....
except for the dogs.

[Hans-Georg Michna]

"kees" > wrote:

>I have been mugged once in my life, in Rome, during the day. Well, at least
>they tried to....

Me too, by a gang of children in front of the main station. I
had to shake them off somewhat vigorously, but the biggest
surprise for me was that the adult people around obviously saw
this as absolutely normal.

Totally unimaginable in Germany, for example, where there is a
"culture" of people watching over each other (which sometimes
goes too far in the other direction for some peoples' taste).

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.

[Gary Balfour]

"Rita Daggett" > wrote in message >...
> > The museums mentioned are an easy taxi ride from city hotels, as is
> > the International centre.
> The first three times we visited Nairobi (1979, 81 and about 93) we walked
> into town (from the Panafric) and out to the Museum/snake park and felt Ok
> about it; we were warned not walk about at night tho.
> The last time (2001) the driver of the mini-bus which picked us up from the
> airport told us to keep the windows of the bus shut as otherwise things
> might get grabbed through the window, and the hotel staff were not happy
> about us walking to the museum if we were carrying camera stuff with us - as
> there was nowhere we felt it was safe to leave our valuables, we took a
> taxi. The driver arranged with us a time to come back and collect us. So I
> dont know whether I would have felt 'unsafe' if we'd tried walking.

I moved to Nairobi early in 2001 after many years in quiet Arusha,
Tanzania. I have lived here about two and a half years and feel no
more at risk than I do when I am in any other big city. You would not
walk in Central Park alone late at night (I suspect). You also would
not walk around the Central Business district here late at night.

It is risky, but there are a lot of places that are risky just now.
Hotels have made visible efforts at increased security. But it all
boils down to common sense. If you walk around in a short sleeve
shirt with a Rolex watch on, you might lose it. If you drive around
with your windows open is busy traffic were you are stopped a lot,
there is the chance of someone snatching something from your bag.

Me, the only time I have been robbed (pick-pocketed) was in Amsterdam.

As to getting around, if you have a day and want to visit a lot of
sites, I recommend contacting a reputable car hire company (hint like
mine) and renting a car on chauffeur drive for the day. This works
out cheaper than taxis and you know the rate up front. The drivers
(at least mine are) English speaking with extensive knowledge of the
history and culture of the city. And, you have the car all day so you
aren't watching the time. You can even use the car to take you for
that dinner at Carnivore or someplace else.

I hope this helps.

Gary

"The Fish is In the Mail" - This month's restaurant review on
www.safari.cc

[Peter Gower]

An interesting variety of answers. Hans-Georg makes a very good point:
you will not get help if you are attacked. You will also not see
policemen on patrol. You will see askari guards outside many stores, and
sometimes these will help. I still simply do not feel safe in the city.
Peter

[Hans-Georg Michna]

Gary,

don't play it down. Nairobi has had around 10 carjackings per
day in recent times and now shares its reputation as one of the
most crime-ridden cities in the world only with Johannesburg.

Talk to people who have lived there for a little longer, and
they will all tell you stories of what happened to
them---robberies with the car owner tied and stuffed into the
trunk, people trying to stop your car with gun in hand, things
like that.

Nowadays when I look back at the 80s when I could walk through
Nairobi with my camera equipment, a fairly big box, without the
least worry, this seems hard to believe from today's point of
view. I hope I'll get to scanning my photos soon, scanner
already slowly on the way, then I can show you what Nairobi was
like in those days, a very pleasant, peaceful city in Africa.

Nairobi has sunk very low.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.

[Pat Anderson]

In message >, Hans-Georg
Michna > writes
>Gary,
>
>don't play it down. Nairobi has had around 10 carjackings per
>day in recent times and now shares its reputation as one of the
>most crime-ridden cities in the world only with Johannesburg.
>
>Talk to people who have lived there for a little longer, and
>they will all tell you stories of what happened to
>them---robberies with the car owner tied and stuffed into the
>trunk, people trying to stop your car with gun in hand, things
>like that.
>
>Nowadays when I look back at the 80s when I could walk through
>Nairobi with my camera equipment, a fairly big box, without the
>least worry, this seems hard to believe from today's point of
>view. I hope I'll get to scanning my photos soon, scanner
>already slowly on the way, then I can show you what Nairobi was
>like in those days, a very pleasant, peaceful city in Africa.
>
>Nairobi has sunk very low.
>
>Hans-Georg
>
Oh dear, just when I thought Gary was "our man" to tell us all how it is
in Nairobi!
I thought Gary had it right, as he lives there, I know you have been
this year Hans Georg, and I haven`t been since 1999. I`m still in touch
all the time with friends who live in Nairobi and they haven`t reported
anything out of the ordinary.
On the topic of hiring a car to get to various tourist attractions,
that`s a great suggestion Gary, it`s something we did to get to Giraffe
Manor and Karen Blixen`s house. The cost is OK and it`s a very
convenient way to get around.
I`m surprised I didn`t see you in the eighties around Nairobi Hans
Georg. I used to walk around on my own shopping and having coffee etc!
Pat
--
Pat Anderson

[Glendon]

"Hans-Georg Michna" > wrote in message
...
> Gary,
>
> don't play it down. Nairobi has had around 10 carjackings per
> day in recent times and now shares its reputation as one of the
> most crime-ridden cities in the world only with Johannesburg.
>
> Talk to people who have lived there for a little longer, and
> they will all tell you stories of what happened to
> them---robberies with the car owner tied and stuffed into the
> trunk, people trying to stop your car with gun in hand, things
> like that.
>
> Nowadays when I look back at the 80s when I could walk through
> Nairobi with my camera equipment, a fairly big box, without the
> least worry, this seems hard to believe from today's point of
> view. I hope I'll get to scanning my photos soon, scanner
> already slowly on the way, then I can show you what Nairobi was
> like in those days, a very pleasant, peaceful city in Africa.
>
> Nairobi has sunk very low.
>
> Hans-Georg
>
> --
> No mail, please.

Got a problem with carjackers? Fit your car out with this little device!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/232777.stm

[Peter Gower]

Hi again, Pat!! Hans-Georg said it well: people living there have come
to accept the present standard as the norm. To a visitor it is shocking.
I don't think there is anywhere in the west where ladies come to work
without jewellery, and then put it on at work, because of serious danger
of theft from their fellow countrypeople.

[Desert Dweller]

When we checked in at the Panafric last year we were told by the lobby
staff not to leave the hotel after 4pm and by no means go anywhere
unless you are in a taxi. We wanted to go to the 'Hard Rock' in Mombassa
too but it had recently been shot at in a drive-by. From Mombassa we
wanted to take a bus up to Lamu but were discouraged when we read the
newspaper which reported on a bus doing the same route the day before
guerillas ambushed them by strafing the bus with machine gun fire, then
making all the passengers get out, strip and have sex with each other.

Kenya was one of the saddest places I have ever been to- it is so
beautiful, Nairobi included as it is surrounded by a wildlife park, has
great architecture etc, Mombassa has so much history, the wildlife
parks, lakes, the list goes on. There are so many natural resources;
fossil fuel, fruit, tourism, foodstuff, Tusker Beer :), the list is
endless. And yet the country is **** poor and corrupt to the hilt. It is
incredible that the people there are so educated, speak English so well,
but are forced to rip off tourists and each other.

It is certainly not 'like any city', I have parked an open top Jeep
Wrangler (no doors, roof etc) in the parking lot of a busy shopping mall
in Oman and left my wallet on the passenger seat and come back an hour
later and it is still there. Even in Hong Kong taxi drivers return
suitcases of cash to their owners for no personal reward.


--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[Pat Anderson]

In message >, Peter Gower
> writes
>Hi again, Pat!! Hans-Georg said it well: people living there have come
>to accept the present standard as the norm. To a visitor it is shocking.
>I don't think there is anywhere in the west where ladies come to work
>without jewellery, and then put it on at work, because of serious danger
>of theft from their fellow countrypeople.
>
Peter,
I can understand why it happens, even though it`s strange to you and I.
I have a good friend in Nairobi, Jenny, who was born in Kenya and has
a film production company there. When we`ve stayed with Jenny and her
husband, she told me that she had put away her gold jewellery and
started to wear silver, since doing that nobody has bothered her! It`s
gold that is the attraction as it`s more valuable.
In twenty years of living in and visiting Kenya, we only had one
incident and that was an inside job. We used to stay at the Sindbad
hotel in Malindi, which sadly has now become derelict, and one night
somebody removed the mosquito netting and removed some louvre windows,
climbed in and stole money, travellers cheques etc. I woke up and saw
the chap getting out of the window! It was the room cleaners son.
Pat
--
Pat Anderson

[men]

Hans-Georg Michna wrote:
> "kees" > wrote:
>
>
>>I have been mugged once in my life, in Rome, during the day. Well, at least
>>they tried to....
>
>
> Me too, by a gang of children in front of the main station. I
> had to shake them off somewhat vigorously, but the biggest
> surprise for me was that the adult people around obviously saw
> this as absolutely normal.
>
> Totally unimaginable in Germany, for example, where there is a
> "culture" of people watching over each other (which sometimes
> goes too far in the other direction for some peoples' taste).
>
> Hans-Georg
>
Get real. Wake up.
In Germany you can rob someone and no one reacts, afraid that they
themselves are assaulted. All you can hope others call the police.

[Hans-Georg Michna]

Pat Anderson > wrote:

>I thought Gary had it right, as he lives there, I know you have been
>this year Hans Georg, and I haven`t been since 1999. I`m still in touch
>all the time with friends who live in Nairobi and they haven`t reported
>anything out of the ordinary.

Pat,

people don't like to talk about these things. You don't walk
around telling people that you've been robbed and raped
recently. Some people do tell though.

Another effect is that people always try to make the best of it.
Somebody who lives in Nairobi and doesnt emigrate doesn't walk
around telling people what a bad choice he's made.

On the other hand I don't want to exaggerate either, but we've
seen the study putting Nairobi next to Johannesburg in terms of
crime. (I think I posted it here some time ago.)

I do drive into and through Nairobi, even at night, but I take
several precautions before I do that, and constantly assess the
risk. People in Nairobi, for example, tell me not to stop at the
Uhuru Highway traffic lights, but instead drive right through at
night, because there have been many cases of cars being attacked
when they stop there.

One of the more common crimes is that your type of car happens
to be on the order list of some carjackers. They will stop you,
hold a gun under your nose and put you in the trunk. Then they
will drive out into some less inhabited area and leave you
there. If you're lucky, you stay alive and healthy. I could name
a woman I know personally, to whom this has happened, but you
have to believe me, because I should not publish names in this
way here. I could name a man who was driving in Nairobi when
people in another car tried to stop him. He used his big Pajero
to ram their car, but when he did that, they startet shooting at
him. He hadn't seen the pistol before. He fled out of his car in
dense traffic and ran away, hiding among the many pedestrians on
the road. He was merely lucky to survive. And these are just
stories from personal friends. There aren't that many people in
Nairobi who have no such story to tell.

>I`m surprised I didn`t see you in the eighties around Nairobi Hans
>Georg. I used to walk around on my own shopping and having coffee etc!

Hehe, who knows, we may have passed each other a few times in
town. :-)

But I guess you can confirm that Nairobi was very pleasant in
those days, compared to today.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.

[Hans-Georg Michna]

men > wrote:

>Hans-Georg Michna wrote:

>> "kees" > wrote:

>>>I have been mugged once in my life, in Rome, during the day. Well, at least
>>>they tried to....

>> Me too, by a gang of children in front of the main station. I
>> had to shake them off somewhat vigorously, but the biggest
>> surprise for me was that the adult people around obviously saw
>> this as absolutely normal.
>>
>> Totally unimaginable in Germany, for example, where there is a
>> "culture" of people watching over each other (which sometimes
>> goes too far in the other direction for some peoples' taste).

>Get real. Wake up.
>In Germany you can rob someone and no one reacts, afraid that they
>themselves are assaulted. All you can hope others call the police.

True, but not when the misbehaving persons are children.

Also indifference and fear are two different things.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.

[Liz]

In message >
Hans-Georg Michna > wrote:

> men > wrote:
>
> >Hans-Georg Michna wrote:
>
> >> "kees" > wrote:
>
> >>>I have been mugged once in my life, in Rome, during the day. Well, at least
> >>>they tried to....
>
> >> Me too, by a gang of children in front of the main station. I
> >> had to shake them off somewhat vigorously, but the biggest
> >> surprise for me was that the adult people around obviously saw
> >> this as absolutely normal.
> >>
> >> Totally unimaginable in Germany, for example, where there is a
> >> "culture" of people watching over each other (which sometimes
> >> goes too far in the other direction for some peoples' taste).
>
> >Get real. Wake up.
> >In Germany you can rob someone and no one reacts, afraid that they
> >themselves are assaulted. All you can hope others call the police.
>
> True, but not when the misbehaving persons are children.
>
I couldn't understand why the children in question in Rome aren't rounded up
by police at the very least for not being in school.

Liz

--
Virtual Liz at http://www.v-liz.co.uk
Kenya; Tanzania; India; Seychelles
New Aug '03: Namibia
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"

[Gary Balfour]

Hans-Georg Michna > wrote in message >...
> Gary,
>
> don't play it down. Nairobi has had around 10 carjackings per
> day in recent times and now shares its reputation as one of the
> most crime-ridden cities in the world only with Johannesburg.
>
> Talk to people who have lived there for a little longer, and
> they will all tell you stories of what happened to
> them---robberies with the car owner tied and stuffed into the
> trunk, people trying to stop your car with gun in hand, things
> like that.
>
> Nowadays when I look back at the 80s when I could walk through
> Nairobi with my camera equipment, a fairly big box, without the
> least worry, this seems hard to believe from today's point of
> view. I hope I'll get to scanning my photos soon, scanner
> already slowly on the way, then I can show you what Nairobi was
> like in those days, a very pleasant, peaceful city in Africa.
>
> Nairobi has sunk very low.
>
> Hans-Georg

Hans-Georg,

I assure you, I do not play down the dangers of Nairobi. My website
has a places devoted to security and safety. My company gives a
brochure called "Safe Driving in Kenya" to everyone that hires a car
from us. Each one of my drivers undergoes quarterly training sessions
in safety and security including a recent addition regarding
anti-terrorism.

And I do know people that have had robberies and their cars
car-jacked. I have been a victim of an armed robbery - in a small
town in Connectiicut. I have had my car stolen and my house robbed -
in Houston Texas.

Security has improved. Especially at hotels and areas where
international visitors might go. Carjacking have reduced. As owner
of a fleet of new vehicles including Pajeros, Prados, and 1.6 litre
Nissans I am very aware of the risks of car jacking and (touch wood)
we have not had one in a year. This is in part because we started
educating our renters. The last customer to have a car stolen was
trying to pick up a prostitute in a risky area at 1AM.

As to the people that fall victim to crime here - I am talking now of
expats and non-indigenous Africans (Asian Indian, colonial ancestory,
etc.) - almost all of the crimes they are victim of are connected to
someone inside such as a house staff member or involve some business
dealing gone bad.

But yes, there are a lot of risks in Nairobi and if my earlier posting
led people to think it is completely safe, I hope this has clarified
it. It is not the city it was in the 80's. But then I did not have
to put my shoes through a bomb detector before boarding an aeroplane
in the 1980's either.

Gary

Tips on safety in East Africa - www.safari.cc

[Hans-Georg Michna]

Gary,

thanks for your interesting message! Good to read.

Maybe somebody should compose a traveller security FAQ
particularly for east Africa. I won't find the time, but some of
it is in my travel plan web page.

Hans-Georg

--
No mail, please.

[Er Principe]

> I couldn't understand why the children in question in Rome aren't rounded
up
> by police at the very least for not being in school.

Probably they're gipsies. I can assure you that any child in Italy is
obliged to go to school.
Regarding gipsies (who represent a serious pickpocket problem here), the
government want their children to go to school, but the parents refuse to
let them go, so the result is that they hang around in town in spite of the
law.
Police, somehow tries to grab them and send them to school, but after a
couple of days they're out again.

OK, maybe I was not clear.
Liz, you got ripped off by a taxi driver in Rome... this is not a problem of
safety. Any "REGULAR" taxi in Rome has a meter, so probably you chose a
private cab, or maybe the taxi driver himself was a dork. But this does not
mean Rome isn't safe, it just means that some romans cheat tourists.
I got the same problem the first time I visited London.

You are supplying examples of the risk anyone could encounter in a normal
big city: anyone can have problems in ANY big town (would you say that
London is safer than Rome? Or Berlin safer than Paris? or New York safer
than Amsterdam?), but Nairobi is another stuff.
What I was talking about is SAFETY. Try to walk around at night in Rome and
compare it to Nairobi. I know that, as almost any capital, anything CAN
happen (as it can happen in Paris, London, Amsterdam), but please DO NOT
compare any of these capitals to Nairobi.
In Nairobi you risk to be killed at night. In Rome or Paris THERE IS the
risk to be mugged or robbed, but my opinion is that it is not comparable IN
ANY CASE.

Talking about safety in Germany, I was also mugged in Berlin some time ago,
but I would NEVER say that Berlin is as dangerous as Nairobi. I was in
Nairobi not for such a long time, but I still remember the feeling of danger
when I leaved the hotel for a walk. People watching and TOUCHING at you,
some men following you in the streets... really it was scarying. And I have
visited other african capitals, so I don't get easily impressed only by
atmospheres.

Ciao

Maurizio

(I hope I was clear with my bad english)

[Marc Lurie]

SNIP>>On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:47:18 GMT, "Glendon"
> wrote:

>
>Got a problem with carjackers? Fit your car out with this little device!
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/232777.stm
>
>

I would like to point out that this article was published in december
1998. The device that it talks about never went into production, and
would NOT be legal in South Africa.

It's strange, but very often the only thing some people know about
South Africa is that infernal anti-hijacking device that they saw on
television.

Marc - Johannesburg