Re: Stay away from JetBlue

[James Robinson]

bjmpls wrote:
>
> James Robinson wrote:
> >
> > Their seat spacing is similar to the economy class on airlines
> > like Southwest, Continental, US Airways, Delta, Northwest,
> > Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, etc. etc.
>
> The complaint is not that they have no first class cabin, but that
> their configuration allows no place to stand and stretch one's legs.

It's no different than the A-320s or 737s most other airlines use on
similar routes. The only places to stand are around the toilets. You
need to move to a wide body, or to a 757 to get any other open areas.
Personally, I dislike 757s, because of the time it takes to load and
unload them. I just flew on a Delta 737-800 with a similar
configuration, so it isn't limited to JetBlue.

> > > On JetBlue, the seats start right behind the cockpit and go all the
> > > way to the back with no breaks.
> >
> > Welcome to the land of an all-economy airline. You get what you pay
> > for.
>
> Quite true. But also less than what you can get from a regular
> airline at the same price if you plan in advance.

Not at all. Some "regular" airlines have extra space, but they are the
minority. Most airlines are set up just like JetBlue in economy.

> > > In addition, the aisle between the seats (three on each side) is
> > > narrower by about 5 inches than the aisles on other major carriers.
> >
> > Nonsense. The aisles are wider than in economy sections on similar
> > Boeing aircraft by one inch. The only possible comparison where the
> > aisle is narrower is between the economy seating on Jet Blue and
> > business class on other carriers. That isn't an appropriate comparison.
>
> You are wrong here. I measured it and compared it to the aisle width
> on a United B757.

That's a neat trick, since the fuselage diameter of a 757 is 7.5 inches
less than that of an A-320. If you are measuring where there are six
across seating, and you insist that the seats are narrower, then there
has to be about a foot of empty space between the walls and the seats to
arrive at your measurement, which obviously isn't the case.

In reality, the A-320 typically has a 1 inch wider aisle than a 757, and
each of the seats is also about 1 inch wider than those on a 757 in
economy. I suggest you try measuring again, since the numbers just don't
add up. There are no variations in the diameters of various 757 or
A-320 models.

> > > The touted leather seats are really synthetic leather and are narrow,
> > > with almost no leg room.
> >
> > That is real leather. The seats are also wider than those in economy on
> > similar Boeing aircraft by about one inch. Legroom is similar to that in
> > most other carriers' economy class.
>
> Don't agree. My seat was ripped and the tear showed a plastic matrix
> making up the fabric; not a clean tear as real leather.

They are real leather. What you are likely seeing is a reinforcing mesh
that is often bonded to the back of leather to increase its strength.

> JetBlue in fact acknowledged to me that they have had other
> complaints about their seats and are working on a solution.

They are more than just working on a "solution", they announced in July
that they were taking a row of seats out of every aircraft, to give a
34" seat pitch, which will be better than pretty well any other airline
in economy. They are supposed to have the fleet modified by the end of
this month.

http://www.jetblue.com/learnmore/pressDetail.asp?newsId=181

> The seats may be are wider by one inch overall, but the seat
> bottoms (where you actually sit) are narrower.

Wrong again. The seat cushions are wider, which is where the extra inch
is provided.

> And it was obvious to me that the legroom was less, because I had
> my knees up to my chest when the seat back in front came down.

I'm well aware of that problem, since I am about 6" taller than you
are. I assure you that the seat pitch on JetBlue is similar to that of
the economy class sections of most other carriers. There are
exceptions, like American and some United seats, which must be what you
normally fly on. Try Delta, US Airways, Northwest, Continental, etc. for
the other side of the coin.

> > > Beware if you are over 5'11" -- the seat tray will not come all the
> > > way down (your thighs are in the way!).
> >
> > Welcome to economy class.
>
> Worse than most. I am comparing this to economy class on major
> carriers like Delta and United.

The seat pitch on JetBlue is 32 inches, which is the same or more than
the economy seating on most Delta and United aircraft. United, of
course, has about 1/3 of the economy section set up for Economy Plus,
which has 34 to 36 inch seat pitch, but the rest of economy is at 31
inch pitch, which is less than that offered by JetBlue.

http://www.delta.com/travel/maps_guides/aircraft/index.jsp
http://www.ual.com/page/middlepage/0,1454,1076,00.html

Once JetBlue's aircraft are modified with greater seat pitch, they will
have more legroom than pretty well any economy seating on any airline in
the country. You won't have much to complain about then, and most of
your comments in this thread will be uselessly out of date.

> > > The DirectTV features mostly news, sports, and the home shopping
> > > network.
> >
> > Out of the 25 available channels, I count only six dedicated to sports
> > or news. That's not "mostly". I also don't see the home shopping
> > network on the list of stations:
> >
> > http://www.jetblue.com/learnmore/factsheet.html
>
> Well it was there on my flight from JFK to Denver, advertising
> non-bargain PCs. And there are only 24 TV channels, if you don't
> include the flight/progress map that is a standard Airbus display.

Fine, that's still only 6 or 7 out of 24 channels, which if far from
"mostly". By the way, what do Delta and United have for entertainment?

> > > And the food? Packaged, unhealhy snacks -- cookies, candy, and
> > > "blue" potatoe chips (goody!).
> >
> > Except for the blue chips, that is exactly what Delta Airlines and US
> > Airways fed me on my last flights, which were both over two hours long.
> > Again, welcome to economy class in the new airline industry.
>
> I fly Delta all the time out of Boston and NYC and they still offer
> hot snacks/meals on many flights JetBlue always has just vending
> machine stuff, even flying cross-country.

Delta is experimenting with selling food on flights originating in
Atlanta, just like US Airways now does everywhere. Don't be surprised
if your hot meals disappear in the near future.

http://www.delta.com/travel/during_flight/dining/food_for_sale_062003/index.jsp

[bjmpls]

James Robinson > wrote in message >...
> bjmpls wrote:
> >
> > James Robinson wrote:
> > >
> > > Their seat spacing is similar to the economy class on airlines
> > > like Southwest, Continental, US Airways, Delta, Northwest,
> > > Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, etc. etc.
> >
> > The complaint is not that they have no first class cabin, but that
> > their configuration allows no place to stand and stretch one's legs.
>
> It's no different than the A-320s or 737s most other airlines use on
> similar routes. The only places to stand are around the toilets. You
> need to move to a wide body, or to a 757 to get any other open areas.
> Personally, I dislike 757s, because of the time it takes to load and
> unload them. I just flew on a Delta 737-800 with a similar
> configuration, so it isn't limited to JetBlue.

Gee, I thought your claim was that the A320s had more room.
>
> > > > On JetBlue, the seats start right behind the cockpit and go all the
> > > > way to the back with no breaks.
> > >
> > > Welcome to the land of an all-economy airline. You get what you pay
> > > for.
> >
> > Quite true. But also less than what you can get from a regular
> > airline at the same price if you plan in advance.
>
> Not at all. Some "regular" airlines have extra space, but they are the
> minority. Most airlines are set up just like JetBlue in economy.

Well, American, Delta, SAS, BA, Lufthansa, and even Southwest have
more room to walk and stretch.
>
> > > > In addition, the aisle between the seats (three on each side) is
> > > > narrower by about 5 inches than the aisles on other major carriers.
> > >
> > > Nonsense. The aisles are wider than in economy sections on similar
> > > Boeing aircraft by one inch. The only possible comparison where the
> > > aisle is narrower is between the economy seating on Jet Blue and
> > > business class on other carriers. That isn't an appropriate comparison..

> >
> > You are wrong here. I measured it and compared it to the aisle width
> > on a United B757.
>
> That's a neat trick, since the fuselage diameter of a 757 is 7.5 inches
> less than that of an A-320. If you are measuring where there are six
> across seating, and you insist that the seats are narrower, then there
> has to be about a foot of empty space between the walls and the seats to
> arrive at your measurement, which obviously isn't the case.

I know that. That's why I found it so surprizing that the 757 had
more aisle space. I measured roughly, I'll admit, using my briefcase,
from armrest to armrest. 25" on a United 757; 20" on JetBlue.
>
> In reality, the A-320 typically has a 1 inch wider aisle than a 757, and
> each of the seats is also about 1 inch wider than those on a 757 in
> economy. I suggest you try measuring again, since the numbers just don't
> add up. There are no variations in the diameters of various 757 or
> A-320 models.

Yes there are! Depending on how the interiors are finished.
>
> > > > The touted leather seats are really synthetic leather and are narrow,
> > > > with almost no leg room.
> > >
> > > That is real leather. The seats are also wider than those in economy on
> > > similar Boeing aircraft by about one inch. Legroom is similar to that in
> > > most other carriers' economy class.
> >
> > Don't agree. My seat was ripped and the tear showed a plastic matrix
> > making up the fabric; not a clean tear as real leather.
>
> They are real leather. What you are likely seeing is a reinforcing mesh
> that is often bonded to the back of leather to increase its strength.

Don't think so. The "leather" itself had these polyester-type fibers
coming out of it's torn edges.

>
> > JetBlue in fact acknowledged to me that they have had other
> > complaints about their seats and are working on a solution.
>
> They are more than just working on a "solution", they announced in July
> that they were taking a row of seats out of every aircraft, to give a
> 34" seat pitch, which will be better than pretty well any other airline
> in economy. They are supposed to have the fleet modified by the end of
> this month.

Great. I'm sure you'll enjoy your favorite airline even more then.
>
> http://www.jetblue.com/learnmore/pressDetail.asp?newsId=181
>
> > The seats may be are wider by one inch overall, but the seat
> > bottoms (where you actually sit) are narrower.
>
> Wrong again. The seat cushions are wider, which is where the extra inch
> is provided.

I wasn't wrong the first time, and you are the one that is wrong on
the seat width. JetBlue claims their seats are 18" wide, same as
United's economy seats. Don't believe me? Contact Rich Galloway,
Director of Crew Services for JetBlue at JFK
).

But they feel narrower to me.

>
> > And it was obvious to me that the legroom was less, because I had
> > my knees up to my chest when the seat back in front came down.
>
> I'm well aware of that problem, since I am about 6" taller than you
> are. I assure you that the seat pitch on JetBlue is similar to that of
> the economy class sections of most other carriers. There are
> exceptions, like American and some United seats, which must be what you
> normally fly on. Try Delta, US Airways, Northwest, Continental, etc. for
> the other side of the coin.
>
> > > > Beware if you are over 5'11" -- the seat tray will not come all the
> > > > way down (your thighs are in the way!).
> > >
> > > Welcome to economy class.
> >
> > Worse than most. I am comparing this to economy class on major
> > carriers like Delta and United.
>
> The seat pitch on JetBlue is 32 inches, which is the same or more than
> the economy seating on most Delta and United aircraft. United, of
> course, has about 1/3 of the economy section set up for Economy Plus,
> which has 34 to 36 inch seat pitch, but the rest of economy is at 31
> inch pitch, which is less than that offered by JetBlue.

No, United is 32, and I take your point about economy plus. Not
available on JetBlue.
>
> http://www.delta.com/travel/maps_guides/aircraft/index.jsp
> http://www.ual.com/page/middlepage/0,1454,1076,00.html
>
> Once JetBlue's aircraft are modified with greater seat pitch, they will
> have more legroom than pretty well any economy seating on any airline in
> the country. You won't have much to complain about then, and most of
> your comments in this thread will be uselessly out of date.

Well, excuuuuuuse me for complaining about what they offer NOW. Why
so bent out of shape? Just MHO.
>
> > > > The DirectTV features mostly news, sports, and the home shopping
> > > > network.
> > >
> > > Out of the 25 available channels, I count only six dedicated to sports
> > > or news. That's not "mostly". I also don't see the home shopping
> > > network on the list of stations:
> > >
> > > http://www.jetblue.com/learnmore/factsheet.html
> >
> > Well it was there on my flight from JFK to Denver, advertising
> > non-bargain PCs. And there are only 24 TV channels, if you don't
> > include the flight/progress map that is a standard Airbus display.
>
> Fine, that's still only 6 or 7 out of 24 channels, which if far from
> "mostly". By the way, what do Delta and United have for entertainment?

Movies and music. Plus air traffic control on most United flights.
>
> > > > And the food? Packaged, unhealhy snacks -- cookies, candy, and
> > > > "blue" potatoe chips (goody!).
> > >
> > > Except for the blue chips, that is exactly what Delta Airlines and US
> > > Airways fed me on my last flights, which were both over two hours long.
> > > Again, welcome to economy class in the new airline industry.
> >
> > I fly Delta all the time out of Boston and NYC and they still offer
> > hot snacks/meals on many flights JetBlue always has just vending
> > machine stuff, even flying cross-country.
>
> Delta is experimenting with selling food on flights originating in
> Atlanta, just like US Airways now does everywhere. Don't be surprised
> if your hot meals disappear in the near future.

But the meals are there now. Again, not available on ANY JetBlue
flight.

And once again (and finally) this is just my viewpoint. If you
disagree, fine. But I'm not alone. Check out epinions.
>
> http://www.delta.com/travel/during_flight/dining/food_for_sale_062003/index.jsp

[James Robinson]

bjmpls wrote:
>
> James Robinson wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I dislike 757s, because of the time it takes to load and
> > unload them. I just flew on a Delta 737-800 with a similar
> > configuration, so it isn't limited to JetBlue.
>
> Gee, I thought your claim was that the A320s had more room.

The A-320s have larger seats and wider aisles than either of those
Boeing models. That is where I said they had more room. 757s have an
area you can stand in around the emergency exits, if you don't mind
disturbing the passengers sitting in those rows. That doesn't give them
more room at the individual seats.

The Delta 737 was a Delta Shuttle configuration, which has economy
seating from the cockpit to the rear of the aircraft, showing that even
major airlines have that arrangement. With the narrower aisles and seats
on the shuttle 737, it is more cramped than the JetBlue A-320.

> Well, American, Delta, SAS, BA, Lufthansa, and even Southwest have
> more room to walk and stretch.

Just where do you go in a 737 or A-320 on those airlines? Southwest in
particular, with their all-coach seating, has less space to walk around
than JetBlue aircraft, given that the aisles are narrower on Boeing
aircraft. The same applies to virtually any Boeing 737, which is a very
popular aircraft.

> > There are no variations in the diameters of various 757 or
> > A-320 models.
>
> Yes there are! Depending on how the interiors are finished.

No!!! The diameter of the fuselage is absolutely identical between
models. The interior wall thickness is also virtually the same. There
are regulations on minimum aisle width, because of evacuation
requirements, so the seats have to fit into the space that's left.

The basic fact is that an A-320 has a 7 inch wider fuselage than Boeings
with standard six-across seating. That extra width goes into providing
wider seats, and a slightly wider aisle. If your claim that the Airbus
aisle was narrower than the Boeing, then each of the Airbus seats would
be about 2 inches wider than those on a 757, which is a huge
difference. It is also contrary to your earlier assertion that both the
seats and the aisles were narrower on JetBlue aircraft.

> > ... they announced in July that they were taking a row of seats
> > out of every aircraft, to give a 34" seat pitch, which will be
> > better than pretty well any other airline in economy.
>
> Great. I'm sure you'll enjoy your favorite airline even more then.

I am struggling to understand why you dislike the airline so much, and
recommend "staying away".

Your complaints centered around your impression about the size of the
seats, the narrow aisles, and the lack of food. The first two have
proven to be more perception than fact, and the lack if food is
something passengers know about ahead of time, and can be prepared for.
No different than other popular low cost airlines like Southwest or
AirTran.

Now, when it is pointed out that JetBlue aircraft will have the most
generous economy seating in the industry, you respond with a cynical
remark. There has to be more to what shaped your opinion than what you
have been saying up to now.

> I wasn't wrong the first time, and you are the one that is wrong on
> the seat width. JetBlue claims their seats are 18" wide, same as
> United's economy seats.

Fine. Let's take that as a given, even though it's wrong. Since the
fuselage on an Airbus is 7.5 inches wider than a United Boeing, and you
claim the aisles are 5 inches narrower on the JetBlue aircraft, where
did JetBlue put the missing 12 inches? It must be new math.

Now look at two aircraft on United's web site. First a Boeing 737-300
showing a 17 inch seat width and 31 inch seat pitch:

http://www.ual.com/page/article/0,1360,49,00.html

Compared to a United A-320 with an 18 inch seat width and a 31 inch seat
pitch.

http://www.ual.com/page/article/0,1360,1078,00.html

Note that the A-320 seats are wider than those on the Boeing, and that
the seat pitch is less than the 32 inches provided on JetBlue, not to
mention much less than the 34 inches they will soon have on their
reconfigured fleet.

And here is a link to United's 757s, again with a smaller seat and seat
pitch (17" X 31") than JetBlue's A-320s:

http://www.ual.com/page/article/0,1360,1090,00.html

> > The seat pitch on JetBlue is 32 inches, which is the same or more than
> > the economy seating on most Delta and United aircraft.
>
> No, United is 32 ...

Why did you say "No"? My statement is accurate. You must not have
looked at the links I gave you. Try the ones above, which show a 31
inch pitch on United's domestic 737 and 757 aircraft. There are others
with 32 inch pitch, which is why I said JetBlues are "the same or more"
in the above paragraph.

> > Once JetBlue's aircraft are modified with greater seat pitch, they will
> > have more legroom than pretty well any economy seating on any airline in
> > the country. You won't have much to complain about then, and most of
> > your comments in this thread will be uselessly out of date.
>
> Well, excuuuuuuse me for complaining about what they offer NOW. Why
> so bent out of shape? Just MHO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you have not expressed it well.

Your complaint was mainly that they have smaller seats and narrower
aisles than "most" other airlines, both of which are incorrect. You
stated that the video was mostly news and sports, which was also
incorrect. You criticized the lack of food, which is valid, but
predictable. You criticized the covering of the seats, which is rather
immaterial to the discussion.

The subject heading of your post was that people should stay away from
JetBlue, yet when it is pointed out that they will imminently have the
roomiest economy aircraft in the industry, which addresses your
perception about being cramped, you don't retract your recommendation.
I simply can't see how you arrived at your opinion, and why you stated
it so strongly in the subject.

> And once again (and finally) this is just my viewpoint. If you
> disagree, fine. But I'm not alone. Check out epinions.

It's interesting that you should point that out, since that doesn't
support your view. The ratings on Epinions show JetBlue as having the
second highest rating for US airlines, behind only Midwest, which is a
superb airline.

The reviews of JetBlue are filled with 5 star rankings, the highest
there is. Their average of 4 stars is ahead of major carriers like
American, Delta, United, and Northwest, all of which have only three
stars, and incidentally, have food on their flights, for the time being
at least. Therefore, you do appear to be alone, or at least in the
minority.

Now, if you want to see real complaints about airlines, try:

http://www.untied.com/

You can also look at the Department of Transportation's report on
airline complaints:

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/2003/0309atcr.pdf

JetBlue has the second lowest rate of consumer complaints, with a rate
of 0.23 complaints per 100,000 boardings, behind only Southwest with a
rate of 0.21. Compare that to:

US Airways 1.15
United 1.08
American 1.01
Continental 0.96
Northwest 0.91
Delta 0.87

It appears by that impartial measure, JetBlue is doing exceedingly well,
at least in the opinion of most of their customers.

[DALing]

depending on the SEATS, though, you will find that the interior of the 757
and the 737 are almost identical except for body length (in fact that was
one of the design criteria) negligible interior width difference

"bjmpls" > wrote in message
om...
> James Robinson > wrote in message
>...
> > bjmpls wrote:
> > >
> > > James Robinson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Their seat spacing is similar to the economy class on airlines
> > > > like Southwest, Continental, US Airways, Delta, Northwest,
> > > > Airtran, Spirit, Alaska, etc. etc.
> > >
> > > The complaint is not that they have no first class cabin, but that
> > > their configuration allows no place to stand and stretch one's legs.
> >
> > It's no different than the A-320s or 737s most other airlines use on
> > similar routes. The only places to stand are around the toilets. You
> > need to move to a wide body, or to a 757 to get any other open areas.
> > Personally, I dislike 757s, because of the time it takes to load and
> > unload them. I just flew on a Delta 737-800 with a similar
> > configuration, so it isn't limited to JetBlue.
>
> Gee, I thought your claim was that the A320s had more room.
> >
> > > > > On JetBlue, the seats start right behind the cockpit and go all
the
> > > > > way to the back with no breaks.
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to the land of an all-economy airline. You get what you pay
> > > > for.
> > >
> > > Quite true. But also less than what you can get from a regular
> > > airline at the same price if you plan in advance.
> >
> > Not at all. Some "regular" airlines have extra space, but they are the
> > minority. Most airlines are set up just like JetBlue in economy.
>
> Well, American, Delta, SAS, BA, Lufthansa, and even Southwest have
> more room to walk and stretch.
> >
> > > > > In addition, the aisle between the seats (three on each side) is
> > > > > narrower by about 5 inches than the aisles on other major
carriers.
> > > >
> > > > Nonsense. The aisles are wider than in economy sections on similar
> > > > Boeing aircraft by one inch. The only possible comparison where the
> > > > aisle is narrower is between the economy seating on Jet Blue and
> > > > business class on other carriers. That isn't an appropriate
comparison..
>
> > >
> > > You are wrong here. I measured it and compared it to the aisle width
> > > on a United B757.
> >
> > That's a neat trick, since the fuselage diameter of a 757 is 7.5 inches
> > less than that of an A-320. If you are measuring where there are six
> > across seating, and you insist that the seats are narrower, then there
> > has to be about a foot of empty space between the walls and the seats to
> > arrive at your measurement, which obviously isn't the case.
>
> I know that. That's why I found it so surprizing that the 757 had
> more aisle space. I measured roughly, I'll admit, using my briefcase,
> from armrest to armrest. 25" on a United 757; 20" on JetBlue.
> >
> > In reality, the A-320 typically has a 1 inch wider aisle than a 757, and
> > each of the seats is also about 1 inch wider than those on a 757 in
> > economy. I suggest you try measuring again, since the numbers just don't
> > add up. There are no variations in the diameters of various 757 or
> > A-320 models.
>
> Yes there are! Depending on how the interiors are finished.
> >
> > > > > The touted leather seats are really synthetic leather and are
narrow,
> > > > > with almost no leg room.
> > > >
> > > > That is real leather. The seats are also wider than those in economy
on
> > > > similar Boeing aircraft by about one inch. Legroom is similar to
that in
> > > > most other carriers' economy class.
> > >
> > > Don't agree. My seat was ripped and the tear showed a plastic matrix
> > > making up the fabric; not a clean tear as real leather.
> >
> > They are real leather. What you are likely seeing is a reinforcing mesh
> > that is often bonded to the back of leather to increase its strength.
>
> Don't think so. The "leather" itself had these polyester-type fibers
> coming out of it's torn edges.
>
> >
> > > JetBlue in fact acknowledged to me that they have had other
> > > complaints about their seats and are working on a solution.
> >
> > They are more than just working on a "solution", they announced in July
> > that they were taking a row of seats out of every aircraft, to give a
> > 34" seat pitch, which will be better than pretty well any other airline
> > in economy. They are supposed to have the fleet modified by the end of
> > this month.
>
> Great. I'm sure you'll enjoy your favorite airline even more then.
> >
> > http://www.jetblue.com/learnmore/pressDetail.asp?newsId=181
> >
> > > The seats may be are wider by one inch overall, but the seat
> > > bottoms (where you actually sit) are narrower.
> >
> > Wrong again. The seat cushions are wider, which is where the extra inch
> > is provided.
>
> I wasn't wrong the first time, and you are the one that is wrong on
> the seat width. JetBlue claims their seats are 18" wide, same as
> United's economy seats. Don't believe me? Contact Rich Galloway,
> Director of Crew Services for JetBlue at JFK
> ).
>
> But they feel narrower to me.
>
> >
> > > And it was obvious to me that the legroom was less, because I had
> > > my knees up to my chest when the seat back in front came down.
> >
> > I'm well aware of that problem, since I am about 6" taller than you
> > are. I assure you that the seat pitch on JetBlue is similar to that of
> > the economy class sections of most other carriers. There are
> > exceptions, like American and some United seats, which must be what you
> > normally fly on. Try Delta, US Airways, Northwest, Continental, etc. for
> > the other side of the coin.
> >
> > > > > Beware if you are over 5'11" -- the seat tray will not come all
the
> > > > > way down (your thighs are in the way!).
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to economy class.
> > >
> > > Worse than most. I am comparing this to economy class on major
> > > carriers like Delta and United.
> >
> > The seat pitch on JetBlue is 32 inches, which is the same or more than
> > the economy seating on most Delta and United aircraft. United, of
> > course, has about 1/3 of the economy section set up for Economy Plus,
> > which has 34 to 36 inch seat pitch, but the rest of economy is at 31
> > inch pitch, which is less than that offered by JetBlue.
>
> No, United is 32, and I take your point about economy plus. Not
> available on JetBlue.
> >
> > http://www.delta.com/travel/maps_guides/aircraft/index.jsp
> > http://www.ual.com/page/middlepage/0,1454,1076,00.html
> >
> > Once JetBlue's aircraft are modified with greater seat pitch, they will
> > have more legroom than pretty well any economy seating on any airline in
> > the country. You won't have much to complain about then, and most of
> > your comments in this thread will be uselessly out of date.
>
> Well, excuuuuuuse me for complaining about what they offer NOW. Why
> so bent out of shape? Just MHO.
> >
> > > > > The DirectTV features mostly news, sports, and the home shopping
> > > > > network.
> > > >
> > > > Out of the 25 available channels, I count only six dedicated to
sports
> > > > or news. That's not "mostly". I also don't see the home shopping
> > > > network on the list of stations:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.jetblue.com/learnmore/factsheet.html
> > >
> > > Well it was there on my flight from JFK to Denver, advertising
> > > non-bargain PCs. And there are only 24 TV channels, if you don't
> > > include the flight/progress map that is a standard Airbus display.
> >
> > Fine, that's still only 6 or 7 out of 24 channels, which if far from
> > "mostly". By the way, what do Delta and United have for entertainment?
>
> Movies and music. Plus air traffic control on most United flights.
> >
> > > > > And the food? Packaged, unhealhy snacks -- cookies, candy, and
> > > > > "blue" potatoe chips (goody!).
> > > >
> > > > Except for the blue chips, that is exactly what Delta Airlines and
US
> > > > Airways fed me on my last flights, which were both over two hours
long.
> > > > Again, welcome to economy class in the new airline industry.
> > >
> > > I fly Delta all the time out of Boston and NYC and they still offer
> > > hot snacks/meals on many flights JetBlue always has just vending
> > > machine stuff, even flying cross-country.
> >
> > Delta is experimenting with selling food on flights originating in
> > Atlanta, just like US Airways now does everywhere. Don't be surprised
> > if your hot meals disappear in the near future.
>
> But the meals are there now. Again, not available on ANY JetBlue
> flight.
>
> And once again (and finally) this is just my viewpoint. If you
> disagree, fine. But I'm not alone. Check out epinions.
> >
> >
http://www.delta.com/travel/during_flight/dining/food_for_sale_062003/index.
jsp

[bjmpls]

OK, my friend. One more exchange and then we're quits. (I have to
say I admire your pro-JetBlue tenacity, but at some point we have to
agree to disagree).


James Robinson > wrote in message >...
> bjmpls wrote:
> >
> > James Robinson wrote:
> > >
> > > Personally, I dislike 757s, because of the time it takes to load and
> > > unload them. I just flew on a Delta 737-800 with a similar
> > > configuration, so it isn't limited to JetBlue.
> >
> > Gee, I thought your claim was that the A320s had more room.
>
> The A-320s have larger seats and wider aisles than either of those
> Boeing models. That is where I said they had more room. 757s have an
> area you can stand in around the emergency exits, if you don't mind
> disturbing the passengers sitting in those rows. That doesn't give them
> more room at the individual seats.

Never drew that conclusion, and you stipulate my point about the
greater opportunities to stretch one's legs.
>
> The Delta 737 was a Delta Shuttle configuration, which has economy
> seating from the cockpit to the rear of the aircraft, showing that even
> major airlines have that arrangement. With the narrower aisles and seats
> on the shuttle 737, it is more cramped than the JetBlue A-320.

Sorry, this is not my experience.
>
> > Well, American, Delta, SAS, BA, Lufthansa, and even Southwest have
> > more room to walk and stretch.
>
> Just where do you go in a 737 or A-320 on those airlines? Southwest in
> particular, with their all-coach seating, has less space to walk around
> than JetBlue aircraft, given that the aisles are narrower on Boeing
> aircraft. The same applies to virtually any Boeing 737, which is a very
> popular aircraft.

Ditto.
>
> > > There are no variations in the diameters of various 757 or
> > > A-320 models.
> >
> > Yes there are! Depending on how the interiors are finished.
>
> No!!! The diameter of the fuselage is absolutely identical between
> models. The interior wall thickness is also virtually the same. There
> are regulations on minimum aisle width, because of evacuation
> requirements, so the seats have to fit into the space that's left.

Maybe in a bare aircraft. But each airline has its own way to finish
the interior. And if you measure diameter from fuselage wall to wall
in a finished plane, it's going to be different, even for the same
model.
>
> The basic fact is that an A-320 has a 7 inch wider fuselage than Boeings
> with standard six-across seating. That extra width goes into providing
> wider seats, and a slightly wider aisle. If your claim that the Airbus
> aisle was narrower than the Boeing, then each of the Airbus seats would
> be about 2 inches wider than those on a 757, which is a huge
> difference. It is also contrary to your earlier assertion that both the
> seats and the aisles were narrower on JetBlue aircraft.

See my point above, and I stand by my earlier statements on this.
>
> > > ... they announced in July that they were taking a row of seats
> > > out of every aircraft, to give a 34" seat pitch, which will be
> > > better than pretty well any other airline in economy.
> >
> > Great. I'm sure you'll enjoy your favorite airline even more then.
>
> I am struggling to understand why you dislike the airline so much, and
> recommend "staying away".

Because it was cramped, dirty, noisy, etc., etc. BTW, United's A320's
have only 138 seats while jetBlue's have 162 (both 18" width). Talk
about a sardine can! Don't believe me? Look at your own link to
seating configurations on ual.com.
>
> Your complaints centered around your impression about the size of the
> seats, the narrow aisles, and the lack of food. The first two have
> proven to be more perception than fact, and the lack if food is
> something passengers know about ahead of time, and can be prepared for.
> No different than other popular low cost airlines like Southwest or
> AirTran.

I wasn't doing an evaluation of low-cost airlines, just giving my
impression of a trip on JetBlue. Maybe the others are indeed just as
bad.
>
> Now, when it is pointed out that JetBlue aircraft will have the most
> generous economy seating in the industry, you respond with a cynical
> remark. There has to be more to what shaped your opinion than what you
> have been saying up to now.

Look at my above point about United's A320s. If by "more generous",
you mean you get more seats per Airbus 320, I'd have to give that one
to you.
>
> > I wasn't wrong the first time, and you are the one that is wrong on
> > the seat width. JetBlue claims their seats are 18" wide, same as
> > United's economy seats.
>
> Fine. Let's take that as a given, even though it's wrong. Since the
> fuselage on an Airbus is 7.5 inches wider than a United Boeing, and you
> claim the aisles are 5 inches narrower on the JetBlue aircraft, where
> did JetBlue put the missing 12 inches? It must be new math.

The cladding on sides could be thicker, the seats themselve could be
wider (albeit with narrower cushions).

> Now look at two aircraft on United's web site. First a Boeing 737-300
> showing a 17 inch seat width and 31 inch seat pitch:
>
> http://www.ual.com/page/article/0,1360,49,00.html
>
> Compared to a United A-320 with an 18 inch seat width and a 31 inch seat
> pitch.
>
> http://www.ual.com/page/article/0,1360,1078,00.html
>
> Note that the A-320 seats are wider than those on the Boeing, and that
> the seat pitch is less than the 32 inches provided on JetBlue, not to
> mention much less than the 34 inches they will soon have on their
> reconfigured fleet.

Well then, how does JetBlue cram in 24 more seats?
>
> And here is a link to United's 757s, again with a smaller seat and seat
> pitch (17" X 31") than JetBlue's A-320s:
>
> http://www.ual.com/page/article/0,1360,1090,00.html
>
> > > The seat pitch on JetBlue is 32 inches, which is the same or more than
> > > the economy seating on most Delta and United aircraft.
> >
> > No, United is 32 ...
>
> Why did you say "No"? My statement is accurate. You must not have
> looked at the links I gave you. Try the ones above, which show a 31
> inch pitch on United's domestic 737 and 757 aircraft. There are others
> with 32 inch pitch, which is why I said JetBlues are "the same or more"
> in the above paragraph.

The "more" part is false.

>
> > > Once JetBlue's aircraft are modified with greater seat pitch, they will
> > > have more legroom than pretty well any economy seating on any airline in
> > > the country. You won't have much to complain about then, and most of
> > > your comments in this thread will be uselessly out of date.
> >
> > Well, excuuuuuuse me for complaining about what they offer NOW. Why
> > so bent out of shape? Just MHO.
>
> You are entitled to your opinion, but you have not expressed it well.

IYHO.

>
> Your complaint was mainly that they have smaller seats and narrower
> aisles than "most" other airlines, both of which are incorrect.

Sorry, I don't concede that one.


You
> stated that the video was mostly news and sports, which was also
> incorrect.

Seemed that way to me, but perhaps I was wrong.

You criticized the lack of food, which is valid, but
> predictable.

Don't see how that is relevant.

You criticized the covering of the seats, which is rather
> immaterial to the discussion.

In your judgment.
>
> The subject heading of your post was that people should stay away from
> JetBlue, yet when it is pointed out that they will imminently have the
> roomiest economy aircraft in the industry, which addresses your
> perception about being cramped, you don't retract your recommendation.
> I simply can't see how you arrived at your opinion, and why you stated
> it so strongly in the subject.

Take a gander at other airline configurations and compare them to the
wall-to-wall JetBlue seats, and see my other points.
>
> > And once again (and finally) this is just my viewpoint. If you
> > disagree, fine. But I'm not alone. Check out epinions.
>
> It's interesting that you should point that out, since that doesn't
> support your view. The ratings on Epinions show JetBlue as having the
> second highest rating for US airlines, behind only Midwest, which is a
> superb airline.

Look, Champ: My view is *not* that the majority don't love JetBlue.
I know that many people (like you) do, that's why I opened my original
post by characterizing my position as "contrarian". I cited epinions
because there are others who feel the way I do, and have said so
there. I'm happy to stipulate that we may be in the minority.
>
> The reviews of JetBlue are filled with 5 star rankings, the highest
> there is. Their average of 4 stars is ahead of major carriers like
> American, Delta, United, and Northwest, all of which have only three
> stars, and incidentally, have food on their flights, for the time being
> at least. Therefore, you do appear to be alone, or at least in the
> minority.

Not alone. And our ranks must be growing. Or else why would your
flawless airline give up a row of seats (thereby giving up $$ per
flight) to create more room.

Now, go fly JetBlue (till you are blue in the face) with my
enthusiastic blessings.
>
> Now, if you want to see real complaints about airlines, try:
>
> http://www.untied.com/
>
> You can also look at the Department of Transportation's report on
> airline complaints:
>
> http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/2003/0309atcr.pdf
>
> JetBlue has the second lowest rate of consumer complaints, with a rate
> of 0.23 complaints per 100,000 boardings, behind only Southwest with a
> rate of 0.21. Compare that to:
>
> US Airways 1.15
> United 1.08
> American 1.01
> Continental 0.96
> Northwest 0.91
> Delta 0.87
>
> It appears by that impartial measure, JetBlue is doing exceedingly well,
> at least in the opinion of most of their customers.

[Timothy J. Lee]

In article >,
bjmpls > wrote:
>Well then, how does JetBlue cram in 24 more seats?

No first class seats, which take up more room per seat.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

[James Robinson]

bjmpls wrote:
>
> OK, my friend. One more exchange and then we're quits.

Why? You have yet to give any substantive example of why you are
recommending people stay away from the airline.

> (I have to say I admire your pro-JetBlue tenacity, but at some
> point we have to agree to disagree).

I'm simply questioning your "facts", since few of them have proven
verifiable up to this point.

> James Robinson wrote:
> >
> > 757s have an area you can stand in around the emergency exits,
> > if you don't mind disturbing the passengers sitting in those
> > rows. That doesn't give them more room at the individual seats.
>
> Never drew that conclusion, and you stipulate my point about the
> greater opportunities to stretch one's legs.

Only on a 757, but not on 737s. In another post you suggest that
Southwest is a wonderful airline. Now I am really confused.

Comparing your original complaints about JetBlue, Southwest has similar
cockpit to tail economy seating as JetBlue, with no place to stand.
Both airlines use cabin crews to clean the aircraft at turnaround
points. Like JetBlue, Southwest has no food on their flights, unless you
consider peanuts, Air Crisps and maybe granola bars as food. They have
similar leather-covered seats, but unlike JetBlue, they have no
entertainment whatsoever, other than that provided by smart-mouthed
cabin crews. And finally, the aisles and seats on Southwest's 737s are
narrower than those on JetBlue's A-320s, and JetBlue gives you a seat
assignment.

I am really at a loss to understand why you praise Southwest, but pan
JetBlue.

> > No!!! The diameter of the fuselage is absolutely identical between
> > models.
>
> Maybe in a bare aircraft. But each airline has its own way to finish
> the interior. And if you measure diameter from fuselage wall to wall
> in a finished plane, it's going to be different, even for the same
> model.

You would be talking about fractions of an inch, and nowhere near the
full foot that is missing in your comparison between an Airbus and a
Boeing narrow body plane. The simple fact remains that the seats and
aisles on an Airbus are about one inch wider than on Boeings, since the
interior diameter of the fuselage of and Airbus is about 7 inches
wider..

> > It is also contrary to your earlier assertion that both the
> > seats and the aisles were narrower on JetBlue aircraft.
>
> See my point above, and I stand by my earlier statements on this.

I suggest you take a tape measure next time you fly, as you will find
you are mistaken.

> > I am struggling to understand why you dislike the airline so much, and
> > recommend "staying away".
>
> Because it was cramped, dirty, noisy, etc., etc.

Yet they are practically a clone of Southwest, which you praise.

> BTW, United's A320's have only 138 seats while jetBlue's have 162
> (both 18" width). Talk about a sardine can!

Yes, because JetBlue doesn't have first class, which economy passengers
can't enter, and they have an Economy Plus section, which passengers
paying discount fares won't normally be able to sit in. You are
therefore left with regular economy seats, which, by the way, have one
inch less legroom than the old seating on JetBlue, and three inches less
than their new seating.

> Don't believe me? Look at your own link to
> seating configurations on ual.com.

You did notice that the seats in economy on United's 737s are both
narrower and have less legroom than those on JetBlue?

> > Now, when it is pointed out that JetBlue aircraft will have the most
> > generous economy seating in the industry, you respond with a cynical
> > remark. There has to be more to what shaped your opinion than what you
> > have been saying up to now.
>
> Look at my above point about United's A320s. If by "more generous",
> you mean you get more seats per Airbus 320, I'd have to give that one
> to you.

You know what I mean. Within two weeks, all of JetBlue's aircraft will
have seat pitch that rivals United's Economy Plus, and American's
economy. That is far more than the regular economy seating on
Continental, US Airways, Delta, United, Southwest, Northwest, etc. etc.
In short, while JetBlue's seating was never more cramped than any of the
other major airlines, it will now be generous.

> > Fine. Let's take that as a given, even though it's wrong. Since the
> > fuselage on an Airbus is 7.5 inches wider than a United Boeing, and you
> > claim the aisles are 5 inches narrower on the JetBlue aircraft, where
> > did JetBlue put the missing 12 inches? It must be new math.
>
> The cladding on sides could be thicker, the seats themselve could be
> wider (albeit with narrower cushions).

None of that is the case, except in your imagination.

> > Note that the A-320 seats are wider than those on the Boeing, and that
> > the seat pitch is less than the 32 inches provided on JetBlue, not to
> > mention much less than the 34 inches they will soon have on their
> > reconfigured fleet.
>
> Well then, how does JetBlue cram in 24 more seats?

No first class, and no economy plus. That's fairly obvious.

> > Why did you say "No"? My statement is accurate. You must not have
> > looked at the links I gave you. Try the ones above, which show a 31
> > inch pitch on United's domestic 737 and 757 aircraft. There are others
> > with 32 inch pitch, which is why I said JetBlues are "the same or more"
> > in the above paragraph.
>
> The "more" part is false.

It is no such thing. 32 inch seat pitch is MORE than the 31 inch
provided in regular economy in the aircraft flown by United,
Continental, Northwest, Delta, etc. etc. Why do you persist in denying
the facts? You can read them for yourself on any of the airlines' seat
maps.

> > > > Once JetBlue's aircraft are modified with greater seat pitch, they will
> > > > have more legroom than pretty well any economy seating on any airline in
> > > > the country. You won't have much to complain about then, and most of
> > > > your comments in this thread will be uselessly out of date.
> > >
> > > Well, excuuuuuuse me for complaining about what they offer NOW. Why
> > > so bent out of shape? Just MHO.
> >
> > You are entitled to your opinion, but you have not expressed it well.
>
> IYHO.

Yes, but almost every "fact" you provided has been wrong. They were the
basis for your warning about the airline, and your arguments collapsed
like a house of cards. Had you simply said that you didn't like the
airline, I would have no way of arguing, other than pointing out that
they have pretty well the highest rating on consumer review sites like
Epinions. You are, however, entitled to your opinion, even if it isn't
shared by the majority.


> > Your complaint was mainly that they have smaller seats and narrower
> > aisles than "most" other airlines, both of which are incorrect.
>
> Sorry, I don't concede that one.

I don't know what else I can do, since each of the airlines publishes
their seat pitch and width on their web sites, and JetBlue's are are
definitely wider and have more legroom than the seats on MOST other
airlines.

> You criticized the lack of food, which is valid, but
> > predictable.
>
> Don't see how that is relevant.

It was one of your original complaints, so it is relevant to the
discussion.

> Take a gander at other airline configurations and compare them to the
> wall-to-wall JetBlue seats, and see my other points.

I have read your post praising Southwest, which has very similar seat
configuration to the old JetBlue arrangement. You are not consistent in
your argument. Further, the seating in economy on MOST other airlines is
more cramped than on JetBlue. Again, I can't understand your vehement
criticism of the airline.

> > The ratings on Epinions show JetBlue as having the second highest
> > rating for US airlines, behind only Midwest, which is a superb
> > airline.
>
> Look, Champ:

(Champ? now that's becoming condescending.)

> My view is *not* that the majority don't love JetBlue.
> I know that many people (like you) do,

If you look at my posts, I never said I liked the airline. I was simply
challenging your facts, since they were obviously wrong, and probing to
find out what your real complaint was. I still haven't found it.

> that's why I opened my original post by characterizing my
> position as "contrarian".

They why the emphatic subject that warns prospective readers to "Stay
away from JetBlue"? Why didn't you title it "Minority opinion about
JetBlue" or something similar?

> > The reviews of JetBlue are filled with 5 star rankings, the highest
> > there is. Their average of 4 stars is ahead of major carriers like
> > American, Delta, United, and Northwest, all of which have only three
> > stars, ... Therefore, you do appear to be alone, or at least in the
> > minority.
>
> Not alone. And our ranks must be growing. Or else why would your
> flawless airline give up a row of seats (thereby giving up $$ per
> flight) to create more room.

They described it as a way to differentiate themselves from the other
low-cost carriers, and from the major carriers as they start their own
low-cost subsidiaries. The majors, with their higher costs, will not be
able to compete with low-cost carriers like JetBlue, particularly if
people feel they get better value for their money.

Considering that JetBlue already has some of the highest ratings among
travelers, the extra legroom will make them even more of a solid player
in the industry.

> Now, go fly JetBlue (till you are blue in the face) with my
> enthusiastic blessings.

I will most certainly ignore your suggestion to stay away from the
airline, since you haven't been able to convince my why I should.
Almost none of your facts have been correct, and the majority of their
passengers seem to feel that the airline is better than almost every
other airline in the country. That is a strong endorsement. Now they
will have even more legroom, which is a real plus to me, since I am
tall.