SIA Crew vs Boeing Test Pilots (was SQ222 Diversion)

[Vector]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 > wrote:
>
> What makes me really jumpy about SQ is the endless stream of
>bad stories about them. Cabin crew that go to pieces anytime
>something slightly out of the ordinary happens - useless in
>any sort of emergency situation. Pilots who never, ever go
>around or divert, yet are all at least as good as Boeing test
>pilots (you just ask them).

Hmmm - with your faith in Boeing test pilots you must have missed
this one then GB ..........

"With power going out on one engine of The Boeing's Co.'s historic
S-307 Stratoliner and a cockpit warning light showing low fuel
pressure in another, Capt. Richard "Buzz" Nelson, a veteran Boeing
test pilot, commanded the flight engineer to switch fuel feed to
another tank.

"There is no other tank," the flight engineer responded. "We are out
of fuel."

A police officer stands on a boat near the last remaining
Stratoliner, which crashed into Elliott Bay off West Seattle last
year.
Moments later, Nelson radioed "mayday" and the Stratoliner, all four
engines out, ditched into Elliott Bay about 50 feet from shore and in
view of people eating lunch at nearby Salty's restaurant.

None of the four crew members was seriously hurt and the plane, though
badly damaged, was recovered from the salt water and is now being
restored for the second time.

Details of what happened during the Stratoliner's last fateful flight
one year ago are in a factual report of the accident made public
yesterday by the National Transportation Safety Board. The board's
final report, which will include the probable cause of the crash and
contributing factors, is due to be released today.

But the factual report, prepared by a safety board investigator in
Seattle, provides a fascinating look at the last flight and the sudden
and unexpected fuel emergency for two of Boeing's most experienced
commercial jetliner test pilots."

There's an NTSB report which provides all the humiliating details.

Cheers
Vector

[JMS]

Someone wrote it
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 > wrote:
> >
> > What makes me really jumpy about SQ is the endless stream of
> >bad stories about them. Cabin crew that go to pieces anytime
> >something slightly out of the ordinary happens - useless in
> >any sort of emergency situation. Pilots who never, ever go
> >around or divert, yet are all at least as good as Boeing test
> >pilots (you just ask them).
>
Care to be a little more specific. You must be thinking of another airline
or perhaps you just decided to make this all up





> Hmmm - with your faith in Boeing test pilots you must have missed
> this one then GB ..........
>
> "With power going out on one engine of The Boeing's Co.'s historic
> S-307 Stratoliner and a cockpit warning light showing low fuel
> pressure in another, Capt. Richard "Buzz" Nelson, a veteran Boeing
> test pilot, commanded the flight engineer to switch fuel feed to
> another tank.
>
> "There is no other tank," the flight engineer responded. "We are out
> of fuel."
>
> A police officer stands on a boat near the last remaining
> Stratoliner, which crashed into Elliott Bay off West Seattle last
> year.
> Moments later, Nelson radioed "mayday" and the Stratoliner, all four
> engines out, ditched into Elliott Bay about 50 feet from shore and in
> view of people eating lunch at nearby Salty's restaurant.
>
> None of the four crew members was seriously hurt and the plane, though
> badly damaged, was recovered from the salt water and is now being
> restored for the second time.
>
> Details of what happened during the Stratoliner's last fateful flight
> one year ago are in a factual report of the accident made public
> yesterday by the National Transportation Safety Board. The board's
> final report, which will include the probable cause of the crash and
> contributing factors, is due to be released today.
>
> But the factual report, prepared by a safety board investigator in
> Seattle, provides a fascinating look at the last flight and the sudden
> and unexpected fuel emergency for two of Boeing's most experienced
> commercial jetliner test pilots."
>
> There's an NTSB report which provides all the humiliating details.
>
> Cheers
> Vector

[DALing]

that's what happens when you get too used to having all the bells and
whistles (IT _WAS_ A 65 YEAR OLD AIRCRAFT after all)

(gee wasn't it YOUR part of the preflight to check the fuel..?.)

"Vector" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 > wrote:
> >
> > What makes me really jumpy about SQ is the endless stream of
> >bad stories about them. Cabin crew that go to pieces anytime
> >something slightly out of the ordinary happens - useless in
> >any sort of emergency situation. Pilots who never, ever go
> >around or divert, yet are all at least as good as Boeing test
> >pilots (you just ask them).
>
> Hmmm - with your faith in Boeing test pilots you must have missed
> this one then GB ..........
>
> "With power going out on one engine of The Boeing's Co.'s historic
> S-307 Stratoliner and a cockpit warning light showing low fuel
> pressure in another, Capt. Richard "Buzz" Nelson, a veteran Boeing
> test pilot, commanded the flight engineer to switch fuel feed to
> another tank.
>
> "There is no other tank," the flight engineer responded. "We are out
> of fuel."
>
> A police officer stands on a boat near the last remaining
> Stratoliner, which crashed into Elliott Bay off West Seattle last
> year.
> Moments later, Nelson radioed "mayday" and the Stratoliner, all four
> engines out, ditched into Elliott Bay about 50 feet from shore and in
> view of people eating lunch at nearby Salty's restaurant.
>
> None of the four crew members was seriously hurt and the plane, though
> badly damaged, was recovered from the salt water and is now being
> restored for the second time.
>
> Details of what happened during the Stratoliner's last fateful flight
> one year ago are in a factual report of the accident made public
> yesterday by the National Transportation Safety Board. The board's
> final report, which will include the probable cause of the crash and
> contributing factors, is due to be released today.
>
> But the factual report, prepared by a safety board investigator in
> Seattle, provides a fascinating look at the last flight and the sudden
> and unexpected fuel emergency for two of Boeing's most experienced
> commercial jetliner test pilots."
>
> There's an NTSB report which provides all the humiliating details.
>
> Cheers
> Vector

[Pits]

"Vector" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 > wrote:
> >
> > What makes me really jumpy about SQ is the endless stream of
> >bad stories about them. Cabin crew that go to pieces anytime
> >something slightly out of the ordinary happens - useless in
> >any sort of emergency situation. Pilots who never, ever go
> >around or divert, yet are all at least as good as Boeing test
> >pilots (you just ask them).
>
> Hmmm - with your faith in Boeing test pilots you must have missed
> this one then GB ..........

GB I must defend some of the crews in SQ (grits teeth)
But had Round eyes Aussies and a few Indian capts SQ that could not fault
and yes 2 go arounds were done.
have to be fair.
> "With power going out on one engine of The Boeing's Co.'s historic
> S-307 Stratoliner and a cockpit warning light showing low fuel
> pressure in another, Capt. Richard "Buzz" Nelson, a veteran Boeing
> test pilot, commanded the flight engineer to switch fuel feed to
> another tank.
>
> "There is no other tank," the flight engineer responded. "We are out
> of fuel."
>
> A police officer stands on a boat near the last remaining
> Stratoliner, which crashed into Elliott Bay off West Seattle last
> year.
> Moments later, Nelson radioed "mayday" and the Stratoliner, all four
> engines out, ditched into Elliott Bay about 50 feet from shore and in
> view of people eating lunch at nearby Salty's restaurant.
>
> None of the four crew members was seriously hurt and the plane, though
> badly damaged, was recovered from the salt water and is now being
> restored for the second time.
>
> Details of what happened during the Stratoliner's last fateful flight
> one year ago are in a factual report of the accident made public
> yesterday by the National Transportation Safety Board. The board's
> final report, which will include the probable cause of the crash and
> contributing factors, is due to be released today.
>
> But the factual report, prepared by a safety board investigator in
> Seattle, provides a fascinating look at the last flight and the sudden
> and unexpected fuel emergency for two of Boeing's most experienced
> commercial jetliner test pilots."
>
> There's an NTSB report which provides all the humiliating details.
>
> Cheers
> Vector

[Pits]

"Vector" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 > wrote:
> > There's an NTSB report which provides all the humiliating details.
>
> Cheers
> Vector
Being a bit tired and lazy could you post the url please.

[veritas]

Short-term memory loss eh? The event happened not all that long ago and
was reported by the networks Get a better grip!

veritas

JMS wrote:

>>
> Care to be a little more specific. You must be thinking of another airline
> or perhaps you just decided to make this all up

[Vector]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:21:07 +0800, "Pits"
> wrote:

>Being a bit tired and lazy could you post the url please.
>
Hadn't kept it but quick Google on ntsb boeing 307 gave me 300+ links
incl this one -
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020401X00435&key=1

Cheers

[JMS]

"veritas" > wrote in message
...
> Short-term memory loss eh? The event happened not all that long ago and
> was reported by the networks Get a better grip!
>
> veritas
>

And this is an endless stream of incidents.

> JMS wrote:
>
> >>
> > Care to be a little more specific. You must be thinking of another
airline
> > or perhaps you just decided to make this all up

[matt weber]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:26:55 +1000, Vector >
wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 > wrote:
>>
>> What makes me really jumpy about SQ is the endless stream of
>>bad stories about them. Cabin crew that go to pieces anytime
>>something slightly out of the ordinary happens - useless in
>>any sort of emergency situation. Pilots who never, ever go
>>around or divert, yet are all at least as good as Boeing test
>>pilots (you just ask them).
>
>Hmmm - with your faith in Boeing test pilots you must have missed
>this one then GB ..........
>
>"With power going out on one engine of The Boeing's Co.'s historic
>S-307 Stratoliner and a cockpit warning light showing low fuel
>pressure in another, Capt. Richard "Buzz" Nelson, a veteran Boeing
>test pilot, commanded the flight engineer to switch fuel feed to
>another tank.
>
>"There is no other tank," the flight engineer responded. "We are out
>of fuel."
>
> A police officer stands on a boat near the last remaining
>Stratoliner, which crashed into Elliott Bay off West Seattle last
>year.
>Moments later, Nelson radioed "mayday" and the Stratoliner, all four
>engines out, ditched into Elliott Bay about 50 feet from shore and in
>view of people eating lunch at nearby Salty's restaurant.
>
>None of the four crew members was seriously hurt and the plane, though
>badly damaged, was recovered from the salt water and is now being
>restored for the second time.


You are a tad behind the times. It HAS BEEN RESTORED, and flew to the
Udvar-Hazy Center of the Smithsonian near Dulles International Airport
a few weeks ago. It will go on display along with an AF Concorde, the
367-80, commonly known as the Dash 80 707 prototype, The Enola Gay
(dropped the first atomic Bomb) and wide range of other rare and
historic aircraft when it opens in December.,

[Vector]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:57:23 -0700, matt weber >
wrote:

>You are a tad behind the times.
Ohh C-R-R-R-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-P!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> It HAS BEEN RESTORED,

OF COURSE IT BLOODY WELL HAS YOU ILL-MANNERED JERK!

AS THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS - IT HAD HUGE PUBLICITY IN BOTH AVIATION AND
GENERAL MEDIA AND WAS AT OSHKOSH.

BUT THE THREAD WAS NOT ABOUT THAT ANYWAY IF YOU"D PAID ATTENTION FOOL.

AIR YOUR LIMITED KNOWLEDGE IF YOU MUST WEBER - BUT DON"T COME SWANNING
IN HERE SHOUTING GLEEFULLY AS IF YOU ALONE ARE PRIVY TO THE AIRCRAFTS
ULTIMATE WHEREABOUTS.

SO PULL YOUR F&CKIN HEAD IN and stop shouting Weber.

For anyone else with an interest in vintage aviation -
http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/pa/nasmnews/pr/080603.htm

And an account of it's final flight...........
"Making the most of a triumphant final flight, the Boeing 307
Stratoliner floated softly to earth at Dulles International Airport
yesterday like a piece of silver confetti to take its place in the
Smithsonian Institution as one of the world's pioneering aircraft.

The Stratoliner's flight to the acclaimed Air and Space Museum was the
climax of a painstaking and occasionally bumpy ride for the carefully
restored 1940s-era plane, which secured its place in history by
becoming the first pressurized commercial aircraft. In between, it
endured a time in an Arizona boneyard, a difficult restoration and, in
June 2002, an embarrassing dip into Elliott Bay. And fittingly, its
arrival at the Smithsonian was delayed a day because of bad weather.

All the hardship was forgotten yesterday as the plane taxied to a stop
and was greeted with applause and broad smiles.

"It's a fantastic, beautiful airplane. It led the way for what we take
for granted now," said senior pilot Buzz Nelson, who flew the plane on
its final leg from Pittsburgh, skimming the runway at 400 feet on a
final flyover before bringing the glistening silver plane to rest.

"We had to preserve this airplane," said Smithsonian aviation curator
Robert van der Linden. "It's the only one of its kind left. Every
airliner you've been on owes its existence to this airplane. It's an
artifact."

The Smithsonian took ownership of the plane in 1972, but museum
officials credited The Boeing Co. with restoring the plane, stepping
in just in time to keep it from becoming a fire bomber or crop duster.

It took nine years to finish but the plane now appears the same "as it
looked the day it rolled off the assembly line more than 60 years
ago," the Smithsonian said.

"It looked like a haunted house. Fabric was torn. Tubing was
everywhere. I looked at it and said, 'Do we really want to fly this?'
" Pat DeRoberts of Olympia, one of three pilots certified to fly the
plane, said, looking back to 1994, when Boeing volunteers went to
Arizona to bring the plane back to Seattle. If not for Boeing, van der
Linden said, it would have been "decades" before the Smithsonian could
have finished the restoration.

Smithsonian officials were thrilled with the arrival and promptly
parked the stubby four-engine plane nose-to-tail behind an Air France
Concorde. Both planes are destined to be featured attractions at the
museum's new Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, which will open in December.
The two planes virtually encompass the history of commercial air
travel.



Eventually, the sprawling new facility adjacent to Dulles will house
200 airplanes that provide a sweep of aviation history. Museum
officials say more than 3 million people will visit the facility each
year.

The Stratoliner, dubbed the Clipper Flying Cloud and carrying the
insignia of Pan Am, will be displayed at ground level along with such
notable aircraft as a space shuttle and the SR-71 spy plane.

By those standards, the Stratoliner might seem out of place. But
curators and aviation buffs said the plane deserves recognition.

The plane delivered yesterday entered service in 1940 for Pan Am,
serving the Caribbean. It carried 33 passengers and a crew of five in
a level of luxury that is long past. It includes wide seats that can
be converted into beds as well as wood paneling and a vanity. Such
amenities were necessary for its passengers, who were among the
nation's richest and most elite. A ticket from Miami to South America
cost $12,000 in today's dollars.

Because it was pressurized, it could cruise at 25,000 feet, avoiding
the heavy weather that prompted airsickness and the public's
hesitation about flying. It also allowed the plane to fly faster and
on a more predictable schedule.

During World War II, it flew to South America under the direction of
the U.S. Army Air Force. After the war, it passed through the hands of
several owners, and once served as a presidential plane for Haitian
dictator Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier.

"There is an incredible amount of nostalgia," Nelson said of the
flight, which began in Seattle on July 27 and included stops in
Oshkosh, Wis., and Pittsburgh.

"It's like a time machine." "
From the Seattle P-I

And anybody who has read this far would undoubtedly enjoy another
evocative account - long - here
http://www.davidborys.com/archives/000092.html

[Pits]

"Vector" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:57:23 -0700, matt weber >
> wrote:
>
> >You are a tad behind the times.
> Ohh C-R-R-R-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-P!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > It HAS BEEN RESTORED,
>
> OF COURSE IT BLOODY WELL HAS YOU ILL-MANNERED JERK!
>
> AS THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS - IT HAD HUGE PUBLICITY IN BOTH AVIATION AND
> GENERAL MEDIA AND WAS AT OSHKOSH.
>
> BUT THE THREAD WAS NOT ABOUT THAT ANYWAY IF YOU"D PAID ATTENTION FOOL.
>
> AIR YOUR LIMITED KNOWLEDGE IF YOU MUST WEBER - BUT DON"T COME SWANNING
> IN HERE SHOUTING GLEEFULLY AS IF YOU ALONE ARE PRIVY TO THE AIRCRAFTS
> ULTIMATE WHEREABOUTS.
>
> SO PULL YOUR F&CKIN HEAD IN and stop shouting Weber.

Bleeding HECK!!!!! stunned mullet impersonation this end reading
that outburst from you.?

To be honest I have found Matt to be Knowledgable almost
to the point of pedanticism. But the Wealth
of detail has assisted me at all times and have yet to find
him wrong for long when like any one else
he does get a bit off beam. Very Soon a detailed
correction is posted for the edification
and interest of the group.

Long may he reign but I reckon he would
be a bugger of a teacher :-) Demanding 101% accuracy.

Appologies Matt if I call you a pedant but for once meant
as a compliment when I use that word.

Honestly Vector reckon half a slab of your finest
should wing its way to Matt . Or have a Bex a brew and a bit
of a lay down. Sheeesh and I thought I was emotive.

Ok will turn collar around right way again.
Pastor Phil :-)
But stuff me drunk vector
that was a bit of a pirroet (sp?) with the dress
in the air for sure :-)

But what a delightful bit of Aviation history eh !
> For anyone else with an interest in vintage aviation -
> http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/pa/nasmnews/pr/080603.htm
>
> And an account of it's final flight...........
> "Making the most of a triumphant final flight, the Boeing 307
> Stratoliner floated softly to earth at Dulles International Airport
> yesterday like a piece of silver confetti to take its place in the
> Smithsonian Institution as one of the world's pioneering aircraft.
>
> The Stratoliner's flight to the acclaimed Air and Space Museum was the
> climax of a painstaking and occasionally bumpy ride for the carefully
> restored 1940s-era plane, which secured its place in history by
> becoming the first pressurized commercial aircraft. In between, it
> endured a time in an Arizona boneyard, a difficult restoration and, in
> June 2002, an embarrassing dip into Elliott Bay. And fittingly, its
> arrival at the Smithsonian was delayed a day because of bad weather.
>
> All the hardship was forgotten yesterday as the plane taxied to a stop
> and was greeted with applause and broad smiles.
>
> "It's a fantastic, beautiful airplane. It led the way for what we take
> for granted now," said senior pilot Buzz Nelson, who flew the plane on
> its final leg from Pittsburgh, skimming the runway at 400 feet on a
> final flyover before bringing the glistening silver plane to rest.
>
> "We had to preserve this airplane," said Smithsonian aviation curator
> Robert van der Linden. "It's the only one of its kind left. Every
> airliner you've been on owes its existence to this airplane. It's an
> artifact."
>
> The Smithsonian took ownership of the plane in 1972, but museum
> officials credited The Boeing Co. with restoring the plane, stepping
> in just in time to keep it from becoming a fire bomber or crop duster.
>
> It took nine years to finish but the plane now appears the same "as it
> looked the day it rolled off the assembly line more than 60 years
> ago," the Smithsonian said.
>
> "It looked like a haunted house. Fabric was torn. Tubing was
> everywhere. I looked at it and said, 'Do we really want to fly this?'
> " Pat DeRoberts of Olympia, one of three pilots certified to fly the
> plane, said, looking back to 1994, when Boeing volunteers went to
> Arizona to bring the plane back to Seattle. If not for Boeing, van der
> Linden said, it would have been "decades" before the Smithsonian could
> have finished the restoration.
>
> Smithsonian officials were thrilled with the arrival and promptly
> parked the stubby four-engine plane nose-to-tail behind an Air France
> Concorde. Both planes are destined to be featured attractions at the
> museum's new Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, which will open in December.
> The two planes virtually encompass the history of commercial air
> travel.
>
>
>
> Eventually, the sprawling new facility adjacent to Dulles will house
> 200 airplanes that provide a sweep of aviation history. Museum
> officials say more than 3 million people will visit the facility each
> year.
>
> The Stratoliner, dubbed the Clipper Flying Cloud and carrying the
> insignia of Pan Am, will be displayed at ground level along with such
> notable aircraft as a space shuttle and the SR-71 spy plane.
>
> By those standards, the Stratoliner might seem out of place. But
> curators and aviation buffs said the plane deserves recognition.
>
> The plane delivered yesterday entered service in 1940 for Pan Am,
> serving the Caribbean. It carried 33 passengers and a crew of five in
> a level of luxury that is long past. It includes wide seats that can
> be converted into beds as well as wood paneling and a vanity. Such
> amenities were necessary for its passengers, who were among the
> nation's richest and most elite. A ticket from Miami to South America
> cost $12,000 in today's dollars.
>
> Because it was pressurized, it could cruise at 25,000 feet, avoiding
> the heavy weather that prompted airsickness and the public's
> hesitation about flying. It also allowed the plane to fly faster and
> on a more predictable schedule.
>
> During World War II, it flew to South America under the direction of
> the U.S. Army Air Force. After the war, it passed through the hands of
> several owners, and once served as a presidential plane for Haitian
> dictator Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier.
>
> "There is an incredible amount of nostalgia," Nelson said of the
> flight, which began in Seattle on July 27 and included stops in
> Oshkosh, Wis., and Pittsburgh.
>
> "It's like a time machine." "
> From the Seattle P-I
>
> And anybody who has read this far would undoubtedly enjoy another
> evocative account - long - here
> http://www.davidborys.com/archives/000092.html

[Vector]

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:17:38 +0800, "Pits"
> wrote:
>
>Honestly Vector reckon half a slab of your finest
>should wing its way to Matt .

No way mate - he who first shouts should not be surprised to be
answered in kind.

> Or have a Bex a brew and a bit
>of a lay down.
Bit early to open the bar yet
>Sheeesh and I thought I was emotive.
No - not packing a sad, in fact quite the opposite today - as I trust
the hopefully informative remainder of the post (and my TIC on
Dambusters) indicates your worship. :-)

[Vector]

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:49:36 GMT, GB >
wrote:

>Vector > wrote in
:
>> OF COURSE IT BLOODY WELL HAS YOU ILL-MANNERED JERK!
>
> Well, that's the pot calling the shiny-as-the-day-
>it-left-the-factory, brand-spanking-new, never-been-
>used, you-could-eat-your-dinner-off-that kettle black
>if I ever saw it.
>
> Tosser.
>
>G
Ahhh - another graduate I see, from Prof Qansett's School of Literacy
and Logic.

[Qansett]

Vector wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:49:36 GMT, GB >
> wrote:
>
> >Vector > wrote in
> :
> >> OF COURSE IT BLOODY WELL HAS YOU ILL-MANNERED JERK!
> >
> > Well, that's the pot calling the shiny-as-the-day-
> >it-left-the-factory, brand-spanking-new, never-been-
> >used, you-could-eat-your-dinner-off-that kettle black
> >if I ever saw it.
> >
> > Tosser.
> >
> >G
> Ahhh - another graduate I see, from Prof Qansett's School of Literacy
> and Logic.

Wow, what a promotion, its good to be held in such high esteem