Toronto-Tel Aviv - which route?

[[email protected]]

Having an argument with friend who is going to Tel Aviv
later this year. She is considering several routes:

1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv
on KLM.

2. NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al

3, Use her miles for r.t to London, then a separate r/t ticket
to Tel Aviv.

I thought that if she was going to lay over anywhere,
it might as well be London, where she's never been,
because she could stay several days, since it's
a different ticket than London-Tel Aviv.

What can you see in 12 hours in Amsterdam, and I don't
even know if it will be day or night?

If it were my flight, I would take NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al.
Their security is the best, and also non-stop eliminates all those
landings and takeoffs, which are always the most dangerous part of a
flight (even before Al Quaeda shoulder-mounted...)

Choice of routes; that's up to her; it's a function of many
variables, not all rational.

What I would like to know for my own info:

Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?
IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.

Hope this has been semi-clear. Appreciate your input.

--

Traveler

[mrtravel]

wrote:

> Having an argument with friend who is going to Tel Aviv
> later this year. She is considering several routes:
>
> 1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv
> on KLM.
>
> 2. NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al
>
> 3, Use her miles for r.t to London, then a separate r/t ticket
> to Tel Aviv.

If she wants to visit Toronto, Amsterdamn or London, then she should get
a ticket that will get her to one or more of those cities., maybe for a
longer stopover. If she just wants to fly to Israel, then take the
nonstop. Of course, there might also be financial considerations.

[Josh Gelernter]

From Toronto you have 2 non-stop choices and many connections:

Non-Stop

Air Canada to Tel-Aviv
El Al to Tel Aviv

Connections (3 of many)

KLM or Martinair or Air Canada: Toronto-Amsterdam-Tel Aviv
British Airways or Air Canada: Toronto-London-Tel Aviv
> wrote in message
...
>
> Having an argument with friend who is going to Tel Aviv
> later this year. She is considering several routes:
>
> 1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv
> on KLM.
>
> 2. NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al
>
> 3, Use her miles for r.t to London, then a separate r/t ticket
> to Tel Aviv.
>
> I thought that if she was going to lay over anywhere,
> it might as well be London, where she's never been,
> because she could stay several days, since it's
> a different ticket than London-Tel Aviv.
>
> What can you see in 12 hours in Amsterdam, and I don't
> even know if it will be day or night?
>
> If it were my flight, I would take NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al.
> Their security is the best, and also non-stop eliminates all those
> landings and takeoffs, which are always the most dangerous part of a
> flight (even before Al Quaeda shoulder-mounted...)
>
> Choice of routes; that's up to her; it's a function of many
> variables, not all rational.
>
> What I would like to know for my own info:
>
> Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?
> IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
> NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.
>
> Hope this has been semi-clear. Appreciate your input.
>
> --
>
> Traveler
>
>
>
>
>

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:53:11 GMT wrote:

:>Having an argument with friend who is going to Tel Aviv
:>later this year. She is considering several routes:

:>1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv
:>on KLM.

:>2. NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al

:>3, Use her miles for r.t to London, then a separate r/t ticket
:>to Tel Aviv.

Probably the worst choice. She will be subject to the much lower European
luggage limitations.

:>I thought that if she was going to lay over anywhere,
:>it might as well be London, where she's never been,
:>because she could stay several days, since it's
:>a different ticket than London-Tel Aviv.

:>What can you see in 12 hours in Amsterdam, and I don't
:>even know if it will be day or night?

Typically the flight would arrive in the morning and continue at night

:>If it were my flight, I would take NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al.
:>Their security is the best, and also non-stop eliminates all those
:>landings and takeoffs, which are always the most dangerous part of a
:>flight (even before Al Quaeda shoulder-mounted...)

Also faster. But likely more expensive.

:>Choice of routes; that's up to her; it's a function of many
:>variables, not all rational.

:>What I would like to know for my own info:

:>Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?

It is Toronto-Amsterdam.

It should be going north.

:>IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
:>NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.

Not that far north.

:>Hope this has been semi-clear. Appreciate your input.

--
Binyamin Dissen >
http://www.dissensoftware.com

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:46:40 +0300, Binyamin Dissen
> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:53:11 GMT wrote:
>
>:>Having an argument with friend who is going to Tel Aviv
>:>later this year. She is considering several routes:
>
>:>1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv
>:>on KLM.
>
>:>2. NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al
>
>:>3, Use her miles for r.t to London, then a separate r/t ticket
>:>to Tel Aviv.
>
>Probably the worst choice. She will be subject to the much lower European
>luggage limitations.

Thanks. Have forwarded that info to her.
>
>:>I thought that if she was going to lay over anywhere,
>:>it might as well be London, where she's never been,
>:>because she could stay several days, since it's
>:>a different ticket than London-Tel Aviv.
>
>:>What can you see in 12 hours in Amsterdam, and I don't
>:>even know if it will be day or night?
>
>Typically the flight would arrive in the morning and continue at night
>
>:>If it were my flight, I would take NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al.
>:>Their security is the best, and also non-stop eliminates all those
>:>landings and takeoffs, which are always the most dangerous part of a
>:>flight (even before Al Quaeda shoulder-mounted...)
>
>Also faster. But likely more expensive.

$67.00 more, according to her figures.
>
>:>Choice of routes; that's up to her; it's a function of many
>:>variables, not all rational.
>
>:>What I would like to know for my own info:
>
>:>Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?
>
>It is Toronto-Amsterdam.

? I don't understand. I'm talking about the non-stop
Toronto-Tel Aviv.
>
>It should be going north.

Unclear.
>
>:>IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
>:>NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.
>
>Not that far north.

I flew London-LAX years ago, over the Pole. Looked down
at the Canadian barrens with the thousands of glacial lakes.
Quite an experience.

LAX is 34 degrees 09' N. and Tel Aviv is ~31 degrees 30'

Toronto is 43 degrees 38' N. and London is much further North --
51 degrees 33' N.

So if a London-LAX flight found the shortest distance between two
points was over the Pole, why wouldn't that be true as well for
Toronto-Tel Aviv?

DOES anyone know whether Toronto-Tel Aviv flights
go over the Pole?

TIA

--

Traveler

[Howard Lem]

wrote:
> What I would like to know for my own info:
>
> Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?
> IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
> NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.

Almost all of the AC flights across the atlantic follows the established major
airways from Newfoundland(labrador) to Great Britain. There are several
"tracks" over the atlantic. The northern most track goes over the southern
tip of Greenland in an arc towards Scotland and onwards to Norway and Eastern
Europe. The most southerly track will travel in arc passing off the west coast
of Ireland and over France. The tracks in the between are busier as it's
natural arc will be best for flights to LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA and MUN.

I suspect the path for YYZ-TLV will closely follow the southerly track flying
over france est of Paris Flying along/over Italy to TLV.

Star Alliance has a screen saver that charts Star Alliance partner flights on
a world map. The screen saver always seems to attract attention of who ever
is in my office when it activates. You could probably see the track of
YYZ-TLV
using the "accelerated" mode. I'd do it today(sun), except that AC only
operates on (1356), 247 are Codeshare with El-AL. AC886 leaves at 23:55
using a boeing 763. EL-AL(LY106) flight[aka. AC9580] leaves 22:45 on Thu. and
23:45 on Tue. & Sun. using Boeing 762.

btw the screensaver can be grabbed from URL http://www.staralliance.com/ and
following the link at the bottom of the page or go directly to URL:
http://st.flightlookup.com/StarDownload/ss.html.

> Traveler

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:27:21 GMT, Howard Lem >
wrote:

wrote:
>> What I would like to know for my own info:
>>
>> Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?
>> IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
>> NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.
>
>Almost all of the AC flights across the atlantic follows the established major
>airways from Newfoundland(labrador) to Great Britain. There are several
>"tracks" over the atlantic. The northern most track goes over the southern
>tip of Greenland in an arc towards Scotland and onwards to Norway and Eastern
>Europe. The most southerly track will travel in arc passing off the west coast
>of Ireland and over France. The tracks in the between are busier as it's
>natural arc will be best for flights to LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA and MUN.
>
>I suspect the path for YYZ-TLV will closely follow the southerly track flying
>over france est of Paris Flying along/over Italy to TLV.

Howard, thanks for a most informative reply! You are indeed a very
knowledgeable lad. So much for my outdated "over the Pole" theory.

>Star Alliance has a screen saver that charts Star Alliance partner flights on
>a world map. The screen saver always seems to attract attention of who ever
>is in my office when it activates. You could probably see the track of
>YYZ-TLV
>using the "accelerated" mode. I'd do it today(sun), except that AC only
>operates on (1356), 247 are Codeshare with El-AL. AC886 leaves at 23:55
>using a boeing 763.

My printout for that flight lists a 767-300. Is that "better" or
"worse" than a 763? I am disappointed that they don't use a 747;
I sure could have used the walking-around space on a nearly 11 hour
flight (sob!).

Does *anybody* still use 747s on long international flights?

EL-AL(LY106) flight[aka. AC9580] leaves 22:45 on Thu. and
>23:45 on Tue. & Sun. using Boeing 762.
>
>btw the screensaver can be grabbed from URL http://www.staralliance.com/ and
>following the link at the bottom of the page or go directly to URL:
>http://st.flightlookup.com/StarDownload/ss.html.


I will try the Screensaver, just to see what it's like. I usually
have a blank screen when my computer goes into "sleep" mode,
because I heard somewhere in another galaxy that it's better for the
system than having a picture screen saver -- something about phosphors
not etching? This is probably a UL...I'm not techie enough to know...
What do you think?

--

Traveler

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:13:22 GMT wrote:

:>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:46:40 +0300, Binyamin Dissen
> wrote:

:>>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:53:11 GMT wrote:

:>>:>Having an argument with friend who is going to Tel Aviv
:>>:>later this year. She is considering several routes:

:>>:>1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv
:>>:>on KLM.

:>>:>2. NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al

:>>:>3, Use her miles for r.t to London, then a separate r/t ticket
:>>:>to Tel Aviv.

:>>Probably the worst choice. She will be subject to the much lower European
:>>luggage limitations.

:>Thanks. Have forwarded that info to her.

:>>:>I thought that if she was going to lay over anywhere,
:>>:>it might as well be London, where she's never been,
:>>:>because she could stay several days, since it's
:>>:>a different ticket than London-Tel Aviv.

:>>:>What can you see in 12 hours in Amsterdam, and I don't
:>>:>even know if it will be day or night?

:>>Typically the flight would arrive in the morning and continue at night

:>>:>If it were my flight, I would take NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al.
:>>:>Their security is the best, and also non-stop eliminates all those
:>>:>landings and takeoffs, which are always the most dangerous part of a
:>>:>flight (even before Al Quaeda shoulder-mounted...)

:>>Also faster. But likely more expensive.

:>$67.00 more, according to her figures.
>
:>>:>Choice of routes; that's up to her; it's a function of many
:>>:>variables, not all rational.

:>>:>What I would like to know for my own info:
>
:>>:>Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?

:>>It is Toronto-Amsterdam.

:>? I don't understand. I'm talking about the non-stop
:>Toronto-Tel Aviv.

"1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv"

If directly to TA I would expect slightly further south.

:>>It should be going north.

:>Unclear.

:>>:>IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
:>>:>NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.

:>>Not that far north.

:>I flew London-LAX years ago, over the Pole. Looked down
:>at the Canadian barrens with the thousands of glacial lakes.
:>Quite an experience.

Are you sure it was the pole?

:>LAX is 34 degrees 09' N. and Tel Aviv is ~31 degrees 30'

:>Toronto is 43 degrees 38' N. and London is much further North --
:>51 degrees 33' N.

:>So if a London-LAX flight found the shortest distance between two
:>points was over the Pole, why wouldn't that be true as well for
:>Toronto-Tel Aviv?

Does it?

:>DOES anyone know whether Toronto-Tel Aviv flights
:>go over the Pole?

Doesn't.

--
Binyamin Dissen >
http://www.dissensoftware.com

[Dick Locke]

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:13:22 GMT, wrote:

>DOES anyone know whether Toronto-Tel Aviv flights
>go over the Pole?
>
>TIA
\

Here's a generic answer: http://gc.kls2.com/

Flights generally stay pretty close to the great circle route.
Sometimes they deviate north on westbound transocean routes and south
on eastbound to catch or avoid winds. Sometimes they deviate for
political reasons or to avoid paying ATC fees for a short excursion
across a country. Sometimes a two engine plane has to stay within a
certain number of minutes of an airfield.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:29:37 GMT, Dick Locke >
wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:13:22 GMT, wrote:
>
>>DOES anyone know whether Toronto-Tel Aviv flights
>>go over the Pole?
>>
>>TIA
>\
>
>Here's a generic answer: http://gc.kls2.com/

WHAT A GREAT SITE!!! One more thing to "waste" <g>
my time on. I'm hooked!
>
>Flights generally stay pretty close to the great circle route.
>Sometimes they deviate north on westbound transocean routes and south
>on eastbound to catch or avoid winds. Sometimes they deviate for
>political reasons or to avoid paying ATC fees for a short excursion
>across a country. Sometimes a two engine plane has to stay within a
>certain number of minutes of an airfield.

The 767 is a stretched twinjet, innit?. However, it's not a
freighter, so I don't understand why my print-out lists "767-300",
which the Boeing site identifies as a freighter. This is not the
first time I ran into this. Anybody?

--

Traveler

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:26:49 +0300, Binyamin Dissen
> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:13:22 GMT wrote:
>
>:>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:46:40 +0300, Binyamin Dissen
> wrote:
>
>:>>On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:53:11 GMT wrote:
>
>:>>:>Having an argument with friend who is going to Tel Aviv
>:>>:>later this year. She is considering several routes:
>
>:>>:>1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv
>:>>:>on KLM.
>
>:>>:>2. NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al
>
>:>>:>3, Use her miles for r.t to London, then a separate r/t ticket
>:>>:>to Tel Aviv.
>
>:>>Probably the worst choice. She will be subject to the much lower European
>:>>luggage limitations.
>
>:>Thanks. Have forwarded that info to her.
>
>:>>:>I thought that if she was going to lay over anywhere,
>:>>:>it might as well be London, where she's never been,
>:>>:>because she could stay several days, since it's
>:>>:>a different ticket than London-Tel Aviv.
>
>:>>:>What can you see in 12 hours in Amsterdam, and I don't
>:>>:>even know if it will be day or night?
>
>:>>Typically the flight would arrive in the morning and continue at night
>
>:>>:>If it were my flight, I would take NY-Tel Aviv nonstop on El Al.
>:>>:>Their security is the best, and also non-stop eliminates all those
>:>>:>landings and takeoffs, which are always the most dangerous part of a
>:>>:>flight (even before Al Quaeda shoulder-mounted...)
>
>:>>Also faster. But likely more expensive.
>
>:>$67.00 more, according to her figures.
>>
>:>>:>Choice of routes; that's up to her; it's a function of many
>:>>:>variables, not all rational.
>
>:>>:>What I would like to know for my own info:
>>
>:>>:>Does Toronto-Tel Aviv follow a Great Circle?
>
>:>>It is Toronto-Amsterdam.
>
>:>? I don't understand. I'm talking about the non-stop
>:>Toronto-Tel Aviv.
>
>"1. NY-Toronto-Amsterdam (12 hr. layover w/free hotel) - Tel Aviv"
>
>If directly to TA I would expect slightly further south.
>
>:>>It should be going north.
>
>:>Unclear.
>
>:>>:>IOW, does it go over the N. Pole? In that case, going
>:>>:>NY-Toronto would not be as much out of the way as it seems.
>
>:>>Not that far north.
>
>:>I flew London-LAX years ago, over the Pole. Looked down
>:>at the Canadian barrens with the thousands of glacial lakes.
>:>Quite an experience.
>
>Are you sure it was the pole?

Well, hell, after all these years - no, I'm not sure!
>
>:>LAX is 34 degrees 09' N. and Tel Aviv is ~31 degrees 30'
>
>:>Toronto is 43 degrees 38' N. and London is much further North --
>:>51 degrees 33' N.
>
>:>So if a London-LAX flight found the shortest distance between two
>:>points was over the Pole, why wouldn't that be true as well for
>:>Toronto-Tel Aviv?
>
>Does it?

See above tail between legs reply.
>
>:>DOES anyone know whether Toronto-Tel Aviv flights
>:>go over the Pole?
>
>Doesn't.

--

Traveler

[DALing]

uh... because there ARE some 767 freighters (UPS has a few) but the 767-300
may or may not be a freighter depending on the aircraft.

> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:29:37 GMT, Dick Locke >
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:13:22 GMT, wrote:
> >
> >>DOES anyone know whether Toronto-Tel Aviv flights
> >>go over the Pole?
> >>
> >>TIA
> >\
> >
> >Here's a generic answer: http://gc.kls2.com/
>
> WHAT A GREAT SITE!!! One more thing to "waste" <g>
> my time on. I'm hooked!
> >
> >Flights generally stay pretty close to the great circle route.
> >Sometimes they deviate north on westbound transocean routes and south
> >on eastbound to catch or avoid winds. Sometimes they deviate for
> >political reasons or to avoid paying ATC fees for a short excursion
> >across a country. Sometimes a two engine plane has to stay within a
> >certain number of minutes of an airfield.
>
> The 767 is a stretched twinjet, innit?. However, it's not a
> freighter, so I don't understand why my print-out lists "767-300",
> which the Boeing site identifies as a freighter. This is not the
> first time I ran into this. Anybody?
>
> --
>
> Traveler
>
>

[Not the Karl Orff]

In article >,
wrote:


> My printout for that flight lists a 767-300. Is that "better" or
> "worse" than a 763?

one and the same

> I am disappointed that they don't use a 747;

AC is moving away from 747s slowly. Too big an a/c for them apparently

walking about the cabin is strongly discouraged these days, especially
I'd imagine wityh floights to israel

> Does *anybody* still use 747s on long international flights?

yes