Pubs in Scotland for non smokers

Mike wrote
I'm fighting for the right to choose, Bob, nothing else.

And you're right Mike! People should be allowed to choose. Mind you, I
felt the same about the law enforcing the wearing of seatbelts here in
Canada, but now I do it automatically

As for quitting, it's easier for some than for others and I'm just glad
you've quit

Cheers, Helen

"T N Nurse" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"R.Peffers." wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


How many times? Pubs are, by definition, Public Places.

Actually they are not. They are, by definition, private places where
a landlord may sell alcohol to members of the public at his (the
landlord's) discretion. It's got nothing to do with them being public
places in the general sense, they remain a private establishment. By
definition, a 'public place' is a place owned by a public body, such as
a council - eg public parks.

Actually you are, once again, wrong.

BTW: No retail establishment need serve anyone they deem unsuitable for
whatever reason but for the purpose of the act they are designated Public
Places.

Also, BTW: a council can, and often does, ban members of the public from
premises the public actually owns. Males from female toilets and vice versa.
Noisy folk from libraries. Adults from children's play areas. Drunks from
almost everywhere. Ball Players from around homes. Drivers from non-parking
places. Paedophiles from around schools.Dog walkers from some places in
parks and a lot more besides.
--

Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
(When replying take pam away from peffers.
Scotland).

How many times? Pubs are, by definition, Public Places.
Actually they are not. They are, by definition, private places where
a landlord may sell alcohol to members of the public at his (the
landlord's) discretion. It's got nothing to do with them being public
places in the general sense, they remain a private establishment. By
definition, a 'public place' is a place owned by a public body, such as
a council - eg public parks.

The definition of "public place" in the _Smokers Are Smelly Oiks
And Gas Chambers Are Too Good For Them [Scotland] Act, 2006_ is
whatever the Scottish Parliament says it is. I can't find any
general definition of a "public place" in the Scots law books I've
got, and anyway the parliament could use a definition differing
from any pre-existing one if it wanted to.

Anybody got a pointer to the relevant bit in the act?

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 00:40:23 +0000 (UTC), "R.Peffers."
wrote:


"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 18:24:28 +0000 (UTC), "R.Peffers."
wrote:


"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:04:27 +0000 (UTC), "R.Peffers."
wrote:

snip
Magnus, No one is banning smoking in private and the PUBLIC HOUSE ban
means
that, by definition, pubs being PUBLIC PLACES are not for smokers for
there
is no way to prevent the PUBLIC from entry to PUBLIC PLACES and thus
having
a smokers fumes enter their lungs.

The core/general definition of a "public place" is one to which the
public (_or_a_section_thereof_) are admitted by right _or_otherwise_
at the material time; different laws add or subtract as necessary for
their purposes. Even a brothel can be a "public place" for some laws
but not others as Jamie Theakston found out (an *nglish case but IMU
for the current discussion Scots Law has much the same effect).

If the smokers feel the need so badly
they can start up PRIVATE MEMBERS SMOKERS SOCIAL CLUBS.

Which would still be a "public place" for this purpose according to :-
http://www.clearingtheairscotland.com/faqs/owners.html

15.
"Will the new law affect private clubs, e.g. rugby clubs, snooker
clubs, golf clubs, working men's clubs etc?

snip
Yes. Premises which are being used by and for the purposes of a club
or other unincorporated association, and which are wholly or
substantially enclosed, are affected by the new law. Members and staff
of private clubs deserve the same protection from the health effects
of second-hand smoke as much as anyone else."
I cannot disagree with that but, again, my point was that it must be legal
to have a club for no other reason but to smoke

Why do you think so ?
If it is a club only for smokers then it is a private members club

Thus included in the above general description.

and you must be a smoker to join.

Possibly legal.

According to the definition: Private=of or
concerning a particular person or group; not open to or controlled by the
public. This is not the same thing as allowing smoking in a private club
for, say, golfers who may or may not smoke.

As far as I can see, the legislation deliberately does not permit
smoking in such a club otherwise there could be a coach-and-horses
sized loophole available. It might not be "open to the public" but it
still apppears to be open to a section of the public and thus still
within the general definition of a public place.


and that it must be a
condition of employment that the worker is also a smoker.

I think you'll find such a condition to be in the least against public
policy and thus null and void.

A smokers club is
thus a private club for smokers and other thing done in it is a secondary
purpose as, for example drink is served in most golf clubs.

There is nothing against having a club for smokers but if they are in
relevant premises then they cannot smoke.
But what are, "Relevant Premises", in this instance. I would think a club
exclusively for smokers would be relevant premises for a club for smokers.
Yes I know legal eagles speak a different language to the rest of us but can
these terms be excised from the dictionary of the English language?

What I referred to as relevant premises were those described in the
Executive's advice above; this would seem to encompass most places of
communal gathering other than private residences where the
owner/occupier has a few friends and neighbours present on invitation.
snip
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson: | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 16:15:27 +0000, T N Nurse
wrote:

In article ,
"R.Peffers." wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


How many times? Pubs are, by definition, Public Places.

Actually they are not. They are, by definition, private places where
a landlord may sell alcohol to members of the public at his (the
landlord's) discretion. It's got nothing to do with them being public
places in the general sense, they remain a private establishment. By
definition, a 'public place' is a place owned by a public body, such as
a council - eg public parks.

Ownership is irrelevant to what is a "public place". Various laws have
their own tweaks upon a general theme of a public place being any
highway and any premises or place to which at the material time the
public [or a section thereof] have access whether on payment or
otherwise. Shops (for example) are not generally in public ownership
but when they are open for business they are "public places". Being a
"public place" OTOH does not by itself create a right of entry, thus
not conflicting with a licensee's general right to choose (within the
available forms of legal discrimination) who can enter.
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson: | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 16:15:27 +0000, T N Nurse
wrote:

In article ,
"R.Peffers." wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

How many times? Pubs are, by definition, Public Places.
Actually they are not. They are, by definition, private places where
a landlord may sell alcohol to members of the public at his (the
landlord's) discretion. It's got nothing to do with them being public
places in the general sense, they remain a private establishment. By
definition, a 'public place' is a place owned by a public body, such as
a council - eg public parks.

Ownership is irrelevant to what is a "public place". Various laws have
their own tweaks upon a general theme of a public place being any
highway and any premises or place to which at the material time the
public [or a section thereof] have access whether on payment or
otherwise. Shops (for example) are not generally in public ownership
but when they are open for business they are "public places". Being a
"public place" OTOH does not by itself create a right of entry, thus
not conflicting with a licensee's general right to choose (within the
available forms of legal discrimination) who can enter.

Oh well, we'll see what happens as from tomorrow.

Livingston has had a no-smoking pub for some weeks now, and it doesn't
seem to have affected business there. Mind you, it is a "Wetherspoons",
so not really a pub at all.

It has been ironic, for the last couple of years, that smoking has been
banned in the Almondvale Centre *except* on premises which serve food.

The worst spot for breathing second-hand smoke has been the queue at the
Post Office, which is right next to one of the largest food-serving
areas. You couldn't smoke while standing in the queue, only breathe in
other peoples' smoke. I don't know how the staff managed, except to get
pretty grumpy, in some cases......

--
Ian O.
http://www.iomorrison.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

In message , Ian
Morrison writes
The worst spot for breathing second-hand smoke has been the queue at
the Post Office, which is right next to one of the largest food-serving
areas. You couldn't smoke while standing in the queue, only breathe in
other peoples' smoke. I don't know how the staff managed, except to get
pretty grumpy, in some cases......

Oh come on - you are trying to claim that you don't know that being
extremely grumpy is part of the PO clerks terms of employment?

Actually local PO clerks are great, but in the bloo toon they could
grump for England!

--
N J Carron

Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
How many times? Pubs are, by definition, Public Places.
Actually they are not. They are, by definition, private places where
a landlord may sell alcohol to members of the public at his (the
landlord's) discretion. It's got nothing to do with them being public
places in the general sense, they remain a private establishment. By
definition, a 'public place' is a place owned by a public body, such as
a council - eg public parks.

The definition of "public place" in the _Smokers Are Smelly Oiks
And Gas Chambers Are Too Good For Them [Scotland] Act, 2006_ is
whatever the Scottish Parliament says it is. I can't find any
general definition of a "public place" in the Scots law books I've
got, and anyway the parliament could use a definition differing
from any pre-existing one if it wanted to.

Anybody got a pointer to the relevant bit in the act?

Hello Jack! Been in Bells recently? And do you still have that CD for
sale?

Mike

" wrote:
Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:[about the smoking ban in Scotland]
Hello Jack! Been in Bells recently?

I'm there every Sunday afternoon and was there yesterday.

And do you still have that CD for sale?

Out of the "Embro, Embro" one; I'll do a new edition (and the Aird
collection) when my home situation is a bit easier to work in. I
still have copies of the flute music one.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
" wrote:
Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:[about the smoking ban in Scotland]
Hello Jack! Been in Bells recently?

I'm there every Sunday afternoon and was there yesterday.

And do you still have that CD for sale?

Out of the "Embro, Embro" one; I'll do a new edition (and the Aird
collection) when my home situation is a bit easier to work in. I
still have copies of the flute music one.

Can't read flute music, but I'll have a copy of the Embro Embro one
when you've got it together!

Mike