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Vietnam's 'Dark Years'



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 22nd, 2007, 01:36 PM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
Earl Evleth[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

gosh I guess John Kerry was wrong!

In March, Le Quoc Quan returned to his native Vietnam after finishing
a fellowship at the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington. He
was promptly arrested and charged with planning to overthrow the
government. The charges make sense in the communist country: His
fellowship focused on how to peacefully spread democracy. Under
pressure from the U.S. he was released on Saturday.

Today, President Bush will meet with the president of Vietnam, Nguyen
Minh Triet, at the White House. High on the agenda will be the
Southeast Asian nation's record on human rights. America's military
efforts to stop the communist takeover of South Vietnam ended in
defeat more than 30 years ago. The result was what many Vietnamese
call the "dark years," a period of oppression and economic stagnation
that lasted until the mid-1980s. But now something interesting is
happening. America is once again waging a campaign for freedom in
Vietnam, only this time with "soft power" and bipartisan support.

In recent weeks President Bush met with Vietnamese human rights
advocates. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi herself met with Diem Do,
chairman of the Vietnam Reform Party, this week. Other Democrats have
spoken out too, including former Secretary of State Madeline Albright,
who called for Mr. Quan's release earlier this year.

In 1971, John Kerry told a Senate committee that "We found [in Vietnam
that] most people didn't even know the difference between communism
and democracy." Now it is accepted on both sides of the aisle that the
Vietnamese desire and deserve political freedom. There is bipartisan
recognition that freedom is a universal human aspiration.

But, of course, this consensus is flourishing even as the parties are
sharply divided over another war. And if abandoned now, Iraq would
almost certainly be doomed to its own dark years, just as Vietnam was.
That's a cost many Americans and the Democratic Party's leadership
seem willing to incur, notwithstanding that with decades of hindsight,
a decision to leave Iraq will likely haunt this nation.

Back in 1995, President Bill Clinton demonstrated remarkable foresight
when it came to Vietnam. He opened an American embassy in Hanoi that
year, would later become the first post-war president to visit the
country, and unleashed what wasn't possible before -- a torrent of
trade. Today trade stands at $9.7 billion a year between the U.S. and
Vietnam, more than a five-fold increase since Mr. Clinton left office.
The U.S. has also grown to be the eighth largest investor in Vietnam,
with more than 1,000 American businesses operating there.

In the coming years, Vietnam will likely become an even stronger
trading partner. It joined the World Trade Organization in January and
is now looking to outfit its national airline with a fleet of Boeing
planes capable of making nonstop flights to the U.S. And as the
economy grows, there will likely be more pressure to grant economic
and political freedoms.

Increasing such pressure is in America's national interest. The U.S.
will need new allies in Asia to help manage China and isolate North
Korea. But going back to Vietnam isn't entirely about finding new
markets or old-fashion geopolitical positioning. In 2000, Sen. John
McCain demonstrated as much in making an emotional return trip to the
country that had imprisoned and tortured him for more than five years.
Many other veterans of the war have made similar trips back. For Rep.
Loretta Sanchez, a Democrat who represents a large Vietnamese-American
community in Orange County, Calif., it's not about economics either.
She sees the old flag of South Vietnam flown by her constituents and
knows that there is still a moral fight that needs to be won. She
often delivers speeches about Vietnam's human rights record and points
out that Mr. Quan isn't the only example of recent abuse. To cite just
one more, Father Nguyen Van Ly, a Catholic priest in Vietnam, was
recently sentenced to eight years in prison.

Perhaps Americans need the distance of a few decades to see the full
cost of leaving a battlefield uncontested to an oppressive ideology.
Or perhaps the nation needs to spend a few decades with those who were
able to flee that ideology. Following the fall of Saigon in 1975,
there was a massive outpouring of refugees, many of whom ended up in
the U.S. Today this country is home to the largest community of ethnic
Vietnamese -- 1.1 million -- outside of Vietnam itself. Mr. Quan saw
this as evidence that this nation is a beacon of freedom for the 80
million people who live in Vietnam now.

Thirty years on, will we be haunted by a similar history in the case
of Iraq? That will depend on how many on Capitol Hill remember what we
left behind in Vietnam and resolve not to leave something similar
behind again. In the coming months, we'll likely see who has learned
from our history and who seems to want to repeat it.

  #2  
Old June 22nd, 2007, 03:34 PM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

On Jun 22, 7:36 pm, Earl Evleth wrote:
gosh I guess John Kerry was wrong!

In March, Le Quoc Quan returned to his native Vietnam after finishing
a fellowship at the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington. He
was promptly arrested and charged with planning to overthrow the
government. The charges make sense in the communist country: His
fellowship focused on how to peacefully spread democracy. Under
pressure from the U.S. he was released on Saturday.

Today, President Bush will meet with the president of Vietnam, Nguyen
Minh Triet, at the White House. High on the agenda will be the
Southeast Asian nation's record on human rights. America's military
efforts to stop the communist takeover of South Vietnam ended in
defeat more than 30 years ago. The result was what many Vietnamese
call the "dark years," a period of oppression and economic stagnation
that lasted until the mid-1980s. But now something interesting is
happening. America is once again waging a campaign for freedom in
Vietnam, only this time with "soft power" and bipartisan support.

In recent weeks President Bush met with Vietnamese human rights
advocates. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi herself met with Diem Do,
chairman of the Vietnam Reform Party, this week. Other Democrats have
spoken out too, including former Secretary of State Madeline Albright,
who called for Mr. Quan's release earlier this year.

In 1971, John Kerry told a Senate committee that "We found [in Vietnam
that] most people didn't even know the difference between communism
and democracy." Now it is accepted on both sides of the aisle that the
Vietnamese desire and deserve political freedom. There is bipartisan
recognition that freedom is a universal human aspiration.

But, of course, this consensus is flourishing even as the parties are
sharply divided over another war. And if abandoned now, Iraq would
almost certainly be doomed to its own dark years, just as Vietnam was.
That's a cost many Americans and the Democratic Party's leadership
seem willing to incur, notwithstanding that with decades of hindsight,
a decision to leave Iraq will likely haunt this nation.

Back in 1995, President Bill Clinton demonstrated remarkable foresight
when it came to Vietnam. He opened an American embassy in Hanoi that
year, would later become the first post-war president to visit the
country, and unleashed what wasn't possible before -- a torrent of
trade. Today trade stands at $9.7 billion a year between the U.S. and
Vietnam, more than a five-fold increase since Mr. Clinton left office.
The U.S. has also grown to be the eighth largest investor in Vietnam,
with more than 1,000 American businesses operating there.

In the coming years, Vietnam will likely become an even stronger
trading partner. It joined the World Trade Organization in January and
is now looking to outfit its national airline with a fleet of Boeing
planes capable of making nonstop flights to the U.S. And as the
economy grows, there will likely be more pressure to grant economic
and political freedoms.

Increasing such pressure is in America's national interest. The U.S.
will need new allies in Asia to help manage China and isolate North
Korea. But going back to Vietnam isn't entirely about finding new
markets or old-fashion geopolitical positioning. In 2000, Sen. John
McCain demonstrated as much in making an emotional return trip to the
country that had imprisoned and tortured him for more than five years.
Many other veterans of the war have made similar trips back. For Rep.
Loretta Sanchez, a Democrat who represents a large Vietnamese-American
community in Orange County, Calif., it's not about economics either.
She sees the old flag of South Vietnam flown by her constituents and
knows that there is still a moral fight that needs to be won. She
often delivers speeches about Vietnam's human rights record and points
out that Mr. Quan isn't the only example of recent abuse. To cite just
one more, Father Nguyen Van Ly, a Catholic priest in Vietnam, was
recently sentenced to eight years in prison.

Perhaps Americans need the distance of a few decades to see the full
cost of leaving a battlefield uncontested to an oppressive ideology.
Or perhaps the nation needs to spend a few decades with those who were
able to flee that ideology. Following the fall of Saigon in 1975,
there was a massive outpouring of refugees, many of whom ended up in
the U.S. Today this country is home to the largest community of ethnic
Vietnamese -- 1.1 million -- outside of Vietnam itself. Mr. Quan saw
this as evidence that this nation is a beacon of freedom for the 80
million people who live in Vietnam now.

Thirty years on, will we be haunted by a similar history in the case
of Iraq? That will depend on how many on Capitol Hill remember what we
left behind in Vietnam and resolve not to leave something similar
behind again. In the coming months, we'll likely see who has learned
from our history and who seems to want to repeat it.


He seems to think that if the US has stayed in Viet Nam everything
would be OK over there. I'm more inclined to think that we would
still be fighting in Viet Nam today and wouldn't have the resources to
get involved in Iraq.

Another way to look at it is people like this think that force is
always the answer. If it doesn't work, then we should have used more
force.

  #4  
Old June 22nd, 2007, 09:28 PM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
*.H*[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

Like we needed the resources for Iraq? For what? Try to remember 9/11 was
not Saddam it was Osama a Sunni Arab who had training camps in Afghanistan
and Pakistan.

You're partially right if we spent all this time dicking around in Vietnam
still, maybe the Middle East wouldn't be as ****ed up.


wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 22, 7:36 pm, Earl Evleth wrote:
gosh I guess John Kerry was wrong!

In March, Le Quoc Quan returned to his native Vietnam after finishing
a fellowship at the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington. He
was promptly arrested and charged with planning to overthrow the
government. The charges make sense in the communist country: His
fellowship focused on how to peacefully spread democracy. Under
pressure from the U.S. he was released on Saturday.

Today, President Bush will meet with the president of Vietnam, Nguyen
Minh Triet, at the White House. High on the agenda will be the
Southeast Asian nation's record on human rights. America's military
efforts to stop the communist takeover of South Vietnam ended in
defeat more than 30 years ago. The result was what many Vietnamese
call the "dark years," a period of oppression and economic stagnation
that lasted until the mid-1980s. But now something interesting is
happening. America is once again waging a campaign for freedom in
Vietnam, only this time with "soft power" and bipartisan support.

In recent weeks President Bush met with Vietnamese human rights
advocates. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi herself met with Diem Do,
chairman of the Vietnam Reform Party, this week. Other Democrats have
spoken out too, including former Secretary of State Madeline Albright,
who called for Mr. Quan's release earlier this year.

In 1971, John Kerry told a Senate committee that "We found [in Vietnam
that] most people didn't even know the difference between communism
and democracy." Now it is accepted on both sides of the aisle that the
Vietnamese desire and deserve political freedom. There is bipartisan
recognition that freedom is a universal human aspiration.

But, of course, this consensus is flourishing even as the parties are
sharply divided over another war. And if abandoned now, Iraq would
almost certainly be doomed to its own dark years, just as Vietnam was.
That's a cost many Americans and the Democratic Party's leadership
seem willing to incur, notwithstanding that with decades of hindsight,
a decision to leave Iraq will likely haunt this nation.

Back in 1995, President Bill Clinton demonstrated remarkable foresight
when it came to Vietnam. He opened an American embassy in Hanoi that
year, would later become the first post-war president to visit the
country, and unleashed what wasn't possible before -- a torrent of
trade. Today trade stands at $9.7 billion a year between the U.S. and
Vietnam, more than a five-fold increase since Mr. Clinton left office.
The U.S. has also grown to be the eighth largest investor in Vietnam,
with more than 1,000 American businesses operating there.

In the coming years, Vietnam will likely become an even stronger
trading partner. It joined the World Trade Organization in January and
is now looking to outfit its national airline with a fleet of Boeing
planes capable of making nonstop flights to the U.S. And as the
economy grows, there will likely be more pressure to grant economic
and political freedoms.

Increasing such pressure is in America's national interest. The U.S.
will need new allies in Asia to help manage China and isolate North
Korea. But going back to Vietnam isn't entirely about finding new
markets or old-fashion geopolitical positioning. In 2000, Sen. John
McCain demonstrated as much in making an emotional return trip to the
country that had imprisoned and tortured him for more than five years.
Many other veterans of the war have made similar trips back. For Rep.
Loretta Sanchez, a Democrat who represents a large Vietnamese-American
community in Orange County, Calif., it's not about economics either.
She sees the old flag of South Vietnam flown by her constituents and
knows that there is still a moral fight that needs to be won. She
often delivers speeches about Vietnam's human rights record and points
out that Mr. Quan isn't the only example of recent abuse. To cite just
one more, Father Nguyen Van Ly, a Catholic priest in Vietnam, was
recently sentenced to eight years in prison.

Perhaps Americans need the distance of a few decades to see the full
cost of leaving a battlefield uncontested to an oppressive ideology.
Or perhaps the nation needs to spend a few decades with those who were
able to flee that ideology. Following the fall of Saigon in 1975,
there was a massive outpouring of refugees, many of whom ended up in
the U.S. Today this country is home to the largest community of ethnic
Vietnamese -- 1.1 million -- outside of Vietnam itself. Mr. Quan saw
this as evidence that this nation is a beacon of freedom for the 80
million people who live in Vietnam now.

Thirty years on, will we be haunted by a similar history in the case
of Iraq? That will depend on how many on Capitol Hill remember what we
left behind in Vietnam and resolve not to leave something similar
behind again. In the coming months, we'll likely see who has learned
from our history and who seems to want to repeat it.


He seems to think that if the US has stayed in Viet Nam everything
would be OK over there. I'm more inclined to think that we would
still be fighting in Viet Nam today and wouldn't have the resources to
get involved in Iraq.

Another way to look at it is people like this think that force is
always the answer. If it doesn't work, then we should have used more
force.


  #5  
Old June 22nd, 2007, 10:18 PM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
Atilla the Homophobe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

On 22 juin, 16:44, Earl Evleth wrote:
On 22/06/07 16:34, in article
om, "

wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:36 pm, Earl Evleth wrote:
gosh I guess John Kerry was wrong!
who seems to want to repeat it.


He seems to think that if the US has stayed in Viet Nam everything
would be OK over there. I'm more inclined to think that we would
still be fighting in Viet Nam today and wouldn't have the resources to
get involved in Iraq.


Another way to look at it is people like this think that force is
always the answer. If it doesn't work, then we should have used more
force.


The "he" is not me, I am the real Earl Evleth and this item was posted
by an internet stalker and forger who has posted over 600 forged postings
in my name. My own opinion was that we should never have ventured
into Vietnam and that the country did better without us than if
we had imposed a corrupt regime in the South. Iraq seems to be going
the same way, it is currently listed number 2 on the list of
"failed nations".


He is not me? 600 forged postings in my name? Which is which? Would
the REAL earl evleth please go away!

  #6  
Old June 23rd, 2007, 06:04 AM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
Jigsaw1695
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

On Jun 22, 5:18?pm, Atilla the Homophobe
wrote:
On 22 juin, 16:44, Earl Evleth wrote:





On 22/06/07 16:34, in article
om, "


wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:36 pm, Earl Evleth wrote:
gosh I guess John Kerry was wrong!
who seems to want to repeat it.


He seems to think that if the US has stayed in Viet Nam everything
would be OK over there. I'm more inclined to think that we would
still be fighting in Viet Nam today and wouldn't have the resources to
get involved in Iraq.


Another way to look at it is people like this think that force is
always the answer. If it doesn't work, then we should have used more
force.


The "he" is not me, I am the real Earl Evleth and this item was posted
by an internet stalker and forger who has posted over 600 forged postings
in my name. My own opinion was that we should never have ventured
into Vietnam and that the country did better without us than if
we had imposed a corrupt regime in the South. Iraq seems to be going
the same way, it is currently listed number 2 on the list of
"failed nations".


He is not me? 600 forged postings in my name? Which is which? Would
the REAL earl evleth please go away!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The problem is we cant tell the difference!

Jigsaw

  #7  
Old June 23rd, 2007, 07:40 AM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
Atilla the Homophobe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

On 23 juin, 07:04, Jigsaw1695 wrote:
On Jun 22, 5:18?pm, Atilla the Homophobe
wrote:





On 22 juin, 16:44, Earl Evleth wrote:


On 22/06/07 16:34, in article
om, "


wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:36 pm, Earl Evleth wrote:
gosh I guess John Kerry was wrong!
who seems to want to repeat it.


He seems to think that if the US has stayed in Viet Nam everything
would be OK over there. I'm more inclined to think that we would
still be fighting in Viet Nam today and wouldn't have the resources to
get involved in Iraq.


Another way to look at it is people like this think that force is
always the answer. If it doesn't work, then we should have used more
force.


The "he" is not me, I am the real Earl Evleth and this item was posted
by an internet stalker and forger who has posted over 600 forged postings
in my name. My own opinion was that we should never have ventured
into Vietnam and that the country did better without us than if
we had imposed a corrupt regime in the South. Iraq seems to be going
the same way, it is currently listed number 2 on the list of
"failed nations".


He is not me? 600 forged postings in my name? Which is which? Would
the REAL earl evleth please go away!- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


The problem is we cant tell the difference!

Jigsaw- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -

- Afficher le texte des messages précédents -


People ignore

  #8  
Old June 23rd, 2007, 09:13 AM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
John Rennie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 610
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'


"Jigsaw1695" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 22, 5:18?pm, Atilla the Homophobe
wrote:
On 22 juin, 16:44, Earl Evleth wrote:





On 22/06/07 16:34, in article
om,
"


wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:36 pm, Earl Evleth wrote:
gosh I guess John Kerry was wrong!
who seems to want to repeat it.


He seems to think that if the US has stayed in Viet Nam everything
would be OK over there. I'm more inclined to think that we would
still be fighting in Viet Nam today and wouldn't have the resources
to
get involved in Iraq.


Another way to look at it is people like this think that force is
always the answer. If it doesn't work, then we should have used more
force.


The "he" is not me, I am the real Earl Evleth and this item was posted
by an internet stalker and forger who has posted over 600 forged
postings
in my name. My own opinion was that we should never have ventured
into Vietnam and that the country did better without us than if
we had imposed a corrupt regime in the South. Iraq seems to be going
the same way, it is currently listed number 2 on the list of
"failed nations".


He is not me? 600 forged postings in my name? Which is which? Would
the REAL earl evleth please go away!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The problem is we cant tell the difference!

Jigsaw


Not 'we', you!


  #9  
Old June 23rd, 2007, 09:16 AM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
Part_Time_Troll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

22 Jun 2007,Earl Evleth in
oups.com:

Thirty years on, will we be haunted by a similar history in the
case of Iraq? That will depend on how many on Capitol Hill
remember what we left behind in Vietnam and resolve not to leave
something similar behind again. In the coming months, we'll likely
see who has learned from our history and who seems to want to
repeat it.


it's years too late to ponder that thought. the bushies have already set iraq onto
"the vietnam" path.

--
just think... if jerri falwell had been aborted... we wouldn't have hadta wait with this
long...
http://www.google.com/search?q=Comed...Evil%22+Kqed+%
7CAron+%7C+Kader+%7C+Ahmed+%7C+Jobrani+%7C+Obeidal lah
  #10  
Old June 23rd, 2007, 12:23 PM posted to alt.activism.death-penalty,rec.travel.europe,talk.politics.misc,alt.military.retired
* US *
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default Vietnam's 'Dark Years'

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 20:28:33 GMT, " wrote:

...Try to remember 9/11 was
not Saddam it was Osama a Sunni Arab who had training camps in Afghanistan
and Pakistan.


Actually it was Bush crime family rogue CIA for PNAC.
 




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