Trains vs Planes and Automobiles

On 03/05/2012 04:31 PM, Markku Grönroos wrote:
5.3.2012 13:55, Tom P kirjoitti:t possibly live without for two weeks.

I sometimes come past Frankfurt airport by train and see people
struggling to get on and off the train with these vast suitcases- it's a
major feat of strength to get them off the platform into the carriage,
fight their way along the gangway looking for a seat, only to find that
there is nowhere to stow the cases. If just getting from the airport
terminal back home by train is a torture, just imagine if you actually
had to go anywhere real by train.

For me train travelling has never been a torture. Sometimes a nuisance
and bit tiresome when there has not been one seat vacant. For a truly
long distance journey seat reservation is most likely compulsory anyway.
Luggage has never been a problem either (I just toss the rucksack on the
rack above the seat I occupy). Trains are smooth going, they are almost
immune to traffic jams. They have big windows to have a good vision out.
And you don't have to drive yourself (most of the time I like driving
myself).

I believe we have already caught the idea that you don't like train
travelling yourself - least of all you are a train enthusiast.

The example you give above says nothing about downsides of train
travelling but excessive (in you opinion anyway) load of luggage you
have seen some train travellers to carry around.


Not long ago I spent two years doing a weekly commute of 450 km, Monday
to Friday. Sometimes I took the train, sometimes I flew. The price was
about the same.
Traveling by train I had delays or missed connections every second trip,
sometimes even cancellations, meaning that my seat reservation was gone,
and sometimes meaning I had to stand the entire second leg - and once
that was traveling first class. I stood on freezing cold stations in the
wind, rain and snow waiting for trains to show up, knowing that if I
left the platform for just one minute I might miss the train. Even when
the connecting train did show up, often the cars were arranged in the
opposite order, meaning sprinting down the entire length of the platform
dragging my bags behind me to get to my reserved seat. If you've ever
travelled InterCity you'll know that if you get in the wrong end of the
train, it's impossible to get to the other end. You'll also know just
how long an InterCity is when you have to run from one end to the other.
The longest delay I had the whole time flying was 30 minutes. Not
one single cancellation, the worst thing that ever happened was that a
luggage strap got torn off on the carousel - and the airline paid for a
replacement. Not once did I have to stand for hours in the wind rain
and snow or worry if I'd get to my seat reservation.
Oh and did I mention the Frequent Flier miles?

On 03/05/2012 05:50 PM, Markku Grönroos wrote:
5.3.2012 18:42, bill kirjoittinably 650€.

My personal experience is that the cost of air travel for long distances
has just about doubled in the past five years.

Mainly because of huge increases in taxes.

I used to be able to fly to New York for a couple of hundred pounds, now
it's four hundred.

I used to fly to Mumbai for about £330, now it's at least £550.

Way over inflation.

I don't share that experience. Naturally the fare structures to many
destinations are somewhat different between London and Helsinki. I don't
fly that often and I usually buy tickets months in advance when they are
in their cheapest. I also assume that air travelling won't be cheaper in
following years.


I think air travel got a whole lot cheaper in Europe with deregulation
and the end of the flag carrier monopolies. More recently the fuel costs
and taxes have pushed up prices again.

5.3.2012 18:56, Tom P kirjoitti:

Not long ago I spent two years doing a weekly commute of 450 km, Monday
to Friday. Sometimes I took the train, sometimes I flew. The price was
about the same.
Traveling by train I had delays or missed connections every second trip,
sometimes even cancellations, meaning that my seat reservation was gone,
and sometimes meaning I had to stand the entire second leg - and once
that was traveling first class. I stood on freezing cold stations in the
wind, rain and snow waiting for trains to show up, knowing that if I
left the platform for just one minute I might miss the train. Even when

In Finland also the authority and private corporates have economised to
a point in which one might wonder whether it has been all pointless.

1. Trains don't keep on track because it is too cold.
2. Trains don't keep on track beacuse there is too much snow.
3. Trains don't keep on track because there are two few conductors at
work
4. Trains don't keep on track because there is a severe set of faults in
them (typically concerning the whole stock of certain models of engines
or cars).

For instance so called Flirt commuter trains are out of work now.
Fortunately I don't commute by trains.

On 05/03/2012 10:57 AM, James Silverton wrote:

The example you give above says nothing about downsides of train
travelling but excessive (in you opinion anyway) load of luggage you
have seen some train travellers to carry around.

Time was when I enjoyed a decent meal on a train journey but restaurant
cars with reasonable food are not as common now.


The one Canadian train trip that involved meals was a major
disappointment. We took the ride from Calgary to Vancouver. The ride
was worth it just for the scenery. It was spectacular. The food, OTOH,
was not.

Our 10 am train from Calgary didn't leave until 11, so we were in Banff
around noon. Having a 5 year old with us, we had to stick to regular
meal times so we went to the dining car and I ordered the lunch special,
a hamburger with pea soup and potato chips. The pea soup was watered
down, the hamburger was not very good and there were no chips. When I
asked about the potato chips I was told they had run out. Considering
that the train had been sitting at the station in Calgary for close to
two hours, they certainly had time to pick some up.

The porter came to our roomette mid afternoon taking reservations for
the 5th and final seating at 10pm... not possible with a 5 yer old. We
ate at the snack bar instead.... dried out sandwiches.

My 6 am bacon and eggs breakfast was okay. My son wanted the continental
breakfast, tea, juice and a muffin. At one point the waiter came by and
slid some toast across the table in front of him. A while later when
there was still no muffin I asked about it "We're out of muffins. I
brought him toast". Like the potato chips.... if they had run out, why
did they not arrange for more when they were in Calgary?

Okay... it was only a 24 hour trip and three meals.... but all three
were bad experiences.

The only meal I ate on a European train was while we were travelling
through the Swiss Alps. The food was great.

On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 18:50:46 +0200, Markku Grönroos wrote:

5.3.2012 18:42, bill kirjoittinably 650€.

My personal experience is that the cost of air travel for long
distances has just about doubled in the past five years.

Mainly because of huge increases in taxes.

I used to be able to fly to New York for a couple of hundred pounds,
now it's four hundred.

I used to fly to Mumbai for about £330, now it's at least £550.

Way over inflation.

I don't share that experience. Naturally the fare structures to many
destinations are somewhat different between London and Helsinki. I don't
fly that often and I usually buy tickets months in advance when they are
in their cheapest. I also assume that air travelling won't be cheaper in
following years.

If I have less than 1,000 miles to travel I don't fly, I hate airports
and don't enjoy flying much.

I either drive or take the train.

The last time I flew within Europe it was with Ryanair and I decided then
that there has to be a better way to travel...

I have no idea how I'd get to Helsinki, but the ferry to Holland is a
start...

--
"Hopefully the fair wind will resume, or this may well take all day."

Admiral Collingwood on being becalmed under the guns of six French ships-
of-the-line at Trafalgar

On 03/05/2012 07:24 PM, bill wrote:
The last time I flew within Europe it was with Ryanair and I decided then
that there has to be a better way to travel...

lol.. I'd agree with that...

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Tom P wrote:

Not long ago I spent two years doing a weekly commute of 450 km,
Monday to Friday. Sometimes I took the train, sometimes I flew.

Country ?
Duration of trip in both cases ?

I stood on freezing cold stations in the wind, rain and snow waiting
for trains to show up,

No waiting rooms ? no loudspeaker announcements ?

I do not find crowded airports waiting rooms very friendly, or
comfortable if you have a bit of luggage (or just an overcoat, an
umbrella, a newspaper and a briefcase), and you have to wait for a bus
to bring you under the plane.

At least if a train is delayed, I am seated at my seat and can go on
reading or sleeping.

Traveling by train I had delays or missed connections every second
trip,

I might be biased since most of my destinations or points of origin are
major cities with a direct connection between them. Or if ONE of those
is a minor place, than it is served by a local train not requiring
reservation, and if I miss one, there will be another one in 1 hour at
worst. But such minor places would require anyhow mixed mode travel
(plane+train or train+train).

I had sometimes long delays, but then I knew that even if I arrived late
at night, I had an hotel within walking distance from the station.

The longest delay I had the whole time flying was 30 minutes.

I am not such a frequent flyer, but if I cumulate my experience
(generally not bad, except for damaged or misguided luggage), those by
colleagues, and those read in the press, the delays for flights are
worse (also considering the ratio between delay and flight duration, and
the fact that airports are not close to city centres).

Oh and did I mention the Frequent Flier miles?

There is the equivalent also for railways (although I never managed to
get enough).

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:16:37 +0100, Martin wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:08:37 +0100, Tom P wrote:

On 03/05/2012 07:24 PM, bill wrote:
The last time I flew within Europe it was with Ryanair and I decided
then that there has to be a better way to travel...

lol.. I'd agree with that...

... but not a cheaper, quicker way in many cases.

Only if you're lucky.

If you're unlucky it's no faster and much more uncomfortable.

I had six hours on a coach to another airport, another 6 hours hanging
about for a plane and got home over 12 hours late...



--
"Hopefully the fair wind will resume, or this may well take all day."

Admiral Collingwood on being becalmed under the guns of six French ships-
of-the-line at Trafalgar

bill wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:16:37 +0100, Martin wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:08:37 +0100, Tom P wrote:

On 03/05/2012 07:24 PM, bill wrote:
The last time I flew within Europe it was with Ryanair and I decided
then that there has to be a better way to travel...

lol.. I'd agree with that...

... but not a cheaper, quicker way in many cases.

Only if you're lucky.

If you're unlucky it's no faster and much more uncomfortable.

I had six hours on a coach to another airport, another 6 hours hanging
about for a plane and got home over 12 hours late...



Trains are SO much less cramped than airplanes and you can get on and off
in the middle of cities or even small towns instead of out where there's
often no transport but a taxi, or even if other transport is available it
may take more hours(by train if you're lucky) to reach your destination.
That's what I'm facing in April to reach Passau, after which I get to avoid
airports for a couple weeks. At least my flights are nonstop!

As for those "frequent flyer miles": while my flights are always to
Europe, once a year doesn't accumulate enough to use for anything. My
credit card, on the other hand, earns actual cash, because I pay it off
every month.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad

On 03/06/2012 05:14 PM, Giovanni Drogo wrote:
On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Tom P wrote:

Not long ago I spent two years doing a weekly commute of 450 km,
Monday to Friday. Sometimes I took the train, sometimes I flew.

Country ?

Germany
Duration of trip in both cases ?

About 4 hours. If you include the time at the airport for checkin,
security, baggage.

I stood on freezing cold stations in the wind, rain and snow waiting
for trains to show up,

No waiting rooms ? no loudspeaker announcements ?

Display boards give the approximate delay. Trains are only announced by
loudspeaker when they enter the station, and the loudspeaker
announcements are only audible when you are on the platform.
Unless you have a VIP lounge status, the "waiting rooms", if the
typical vandal-proof shelters even merit that description located on the
platforms might have a capacity of maybe 12 steel-mesh seats and another
10 standing with minimal protection, if any, against the weather. And
this at major railway stations. I believe the rail company deliberately
makes them as uncomfortable as possible in order to deter the homeless
and junkies from using them, and secondly to "encourage" passengers to
make use of the cafes and restaurants at main stations.

Here you can read a discussion forum -
http://www.gutefrage.net/frage/bahnh...zgelegenheiten


I do not find crowded airports waiting rooms very friendly, or
comfortable if you have a bit of luggage (or just an overcoat, an
umbrella, a newspaper and a briefcase), and you have to wait for a bus
to bring you under the plane.

So you prefer standing outside in all weathers?

At least if a train is delayed, I am seated at my seat and can go on
reading or sleeping.

What seat?

Traveling by train I had delays or missed connections every second trip,

I might be biased since most of my destinations or points of origin are
major cities with a direct connection between them. Or if ONE of those
is a minor place, than it is served by a local train not requiring
reservation, and if I miss one, there will be another one in 1 hour at
worst. But such minor places would require anyhow mixed mode travel
(plane+train or train+train).

I had sometimes long delays, but then I knew that even if I arrived late
at night, I had an hotel within walking distance from the station.

The longest delay I had the whole time flying was 30 minutes.

I am not such a frequent flyer, but if I cumulate my experience
(generally not bad, except for damaged or misguided luggage), those by
colleagues, and those read in the press, the delays for flights are
worse (also considering the ratio between delay and flight duration, and
the fact that airports are not close to city centres).

Oh and did I mention the Frequent Flier miles?

There is the equivalent also for railways (although I never managed to
get enough).

That is true. I did once qualify for some upgrade vouchers. The problem
was that they took so long to arrive - over 6 weeks - that the trip I
had planned was long past. I think I threw them away in the end.