Hotel guides for Switzerland and Italy?

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:05:30 +0000, Giovanni Drogo wrote
(in article engr.vans.vg):

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008, glen black wrote:

Have you checked out Touring Club Italiano? gb

Despite the fact I'm a proud member of TCI and a keen user of their
excellent guides (in italian), I'm not so keen on their
hotel-and-restaurant lists (they publish an updated version every so
often).
[...]

This is the kind of organization I would expect to publish what I want. I've
had a look at their website http://www.touringclub.it/ thoughj, and I can't
actually find anything that they produce in book form that is of much use for
my purposes. Online information is no good to me as I can't easily access it
when travelling.

What is the matter with these people? Don't they realize that in order for
people to sample all the tourist stuff they are so keen to promote, visitors
actually need to sleep somewhere first? A wordy book about Italian ancient
monuments with a few incidental mentions of hotels is just not enough.
(Sorry, these questions are rhetorical of course.)

The hotel-and-restaurant lists you refer to might be quite interesting, but I
can't see anywhere on the website that I can actually get such a thing.

I'm afraid that once again (irritatingly) the French seem to be one of the
few countries to actually get this right. All I want is a list of available
hotels, with the prices they charge and the facilities they offer; neither
more nor less. It seems so simple really.

--
Mike Lane (UK North Yorkshire)
To contact me replace invalid with mike underscore lane

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008, Mike Lane wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:05:30 +0000, Giovanni Drogo wrote
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008, glen black wrote:

Have you checked out Touring Club Italiano? gb

This is the kind of organization I would expect to publish what I want. I've
had a look at their website http://www.touringclub.it/ thoughj, and I can't
actually find anything that they produce in book form that is of much use for
my purposes.

I must admit that the site has changed since last time I visited it, and
the section about publications is less easy to navigate than it was
before.

The hotel-and-restaurant lists you refer to might be quite interesting, but I
can't see anywhere on the website that I can actually get such a thing.

This is the book I had in mind

http://www.touringclub.com/ITA/viagg...DEditoria=1445

It is a *selection* of recommended hotels by TCI.

What is the matter with these people? Don't they realize that in order for
people to sample all the tourist stuff they are so keen to promote, visitors
actually need to sleep somewhere first? A wordy book about Italian ancient
monuments with a few incidental mentions of hotels is just not enough.

Well, while appreciating your position, I do not agree. On one hand the
kind of guides I'm mostly interested in are just those with monuments,
museums, parks, history etc. etc. On the other hand the Statute of TCI
(which is a private association with some 500,000 members, which are
private citizens, tourists, not hotel keepers) is promotion of
(cultural) tourism mainly for italians within Italy or abroad.

All I want is a list of available hotels, with the prices they charge
and the facilities they offer; neither more nor less. It seems so
simple really.

Do you want a list of ALL available hotels EVERYWHERE ? On one hand I'm
afraid a country like Italy is too large for this. On the other hand
this is definitely not a task for a private association like TCI, but
more for a public board, like ENIT or some other state office. You are
right that THOSE people, whose statutory mission would be what you say,
do not fulfill it. You could probably get comprehensive lists from the
provincial (well, now no longer) offices, APTs ... but they will be
province by province, and I'm not sure all APTs are online (and if they
are they will be in a disuniform manner).

The only country I saw (or maybe just searched for) a comprehensive
nationwide list was Danemark.


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Mimi wrote on Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:57:04 -0700:



M Most towns except the smallest have Tourism Offices that can
M help you find a place to stay.

In the days when we took vacations in Switzerland, there was no
Red Michelin Guide to the place. There is one now and has anyone
used it? I did and do like the Red Guides to other places tho' I
liked the Guide to France better when they did not translate it
into English.

Michelin also has Red Guides to lots of places in the US but
they are rather flashy and a bit low on information per page.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:57:04 +0000, Mimi wrote
(in article ):

Most towns except the smallest have Tourism Offices that can help you find a
place to stay.

This is what I have always been told, and the first time recently I travelled
by car in Italy I confidently thought that this would be enough. Sadly the
reality is that it's not always as easy as that.

Firstly we have to drive into the town, find a place to park, and find the
Tourist Office. This can take an hour at least. Then by the time we get to it
we have quite often found it closed. This may be due to a week-end (but we
still want to travel - even on Sundays!), or because it's after hours, or for
some other unknown reason. Even when they're open they often haven't been of
very much help.

The first day we were in Italy in a car we found ourselves at around 4 pm
near Asti (not a tourist destination as you will know). With the help of our
GPS we located the tourist office and miraculously also found a parking
space. In the office though, they were not particularly helpful. All they
could do was give us one of those pictorial tourist maps with a few hotels
listed on the back. When we asked if they could find out which places had
rooms available they just pointed to the phone numbers listed that we could
ring ourselves (but not from the office, purtroppo). Fortunately there was a
hotel actually within walking distance, where we did get a room. The
experience though didn't encourage us very much to use the Tourist Offices
elsewhere.

Tourist offices could work I think, if one arrived by rail in the centre of a
town in the middle of the day, intending to spend a few days. You have time
to invest in hotel-hunting and you know you are not going anywhere else that
day. It doesn't make so much sense for us to make our way into the centre of
a town (even a small one) just to find somewhere to stay outside the town for
a night.

--
Mike Lane (UK North Yorkshire)
To contact me replace invalid with mike underscore lane

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:31:44 GMT, Mike Lane wrote:


I'm afraid that once again (irritatingly) the French seem to be one of the
few countries to actually get this right. All I want is a list of available
hotels, with the prices they charge and the facilities they offer; neither
more nor less. It seems so simple really.

I don't know if Italy is having the same problems as the UK, but the
UK regional tourist boards have changed their functions and are now
geared to marketing. Much of their previous hands-on work (i.e. hotel
listings and accommodation inspection/classification) has been
"outsourced". Some of the managers (I'd better not name names on a
public forum) know sod all about tourism and even less about the
regions they're supposedly representing.


Keith (formerly of Bristol UK)
now moved to Berlin/nach Berlin umgezogen

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:22:33 +0000, Giovanni Drogo wrote
(in article ngr.vans.vg):


This is the book I had in mind


http://www.touringclub.com/ITA/viagg...o.aspx?IDEdito

ria=1445

It is a *selection* of recommended hotels by TCI.


Yes that does look interesting. Thanks very much. I didn't find it myself on
the touringclub web pages for some reason. Is it available to non-members? My
grasp of Italian is not so wonderful that I can translate the page easily.

All I want is a list of available hotels, with the prices they charge
and the facilities they offer; neither more nor less. It seems so
simple really.

Do you want a list of ALL available hotels EVERYWHERE ? On one hand I'm
afraid a country like Italy is too large for this. On the other hand
this is definitely not a task for a private association like TCI, but
more for a public board, like ENIT or some other state office.

No of course not. I wasn't really referring to TCI in my last post. I just
meant anyone in the tourist industry. Also I realize that a truly
comprehensive list would be too large to be useful. What I really meant was
that I want a representative selection of hotels from *every* region, so that
where ever you are you can find *somewhere* to stay. That's what seems to me
is missing. It's not hard to find a hotel in one of the major tourist
centres, it's when you go away from these that it is not so easy. And by the
way I am not saying that Italy is worse in this respect than most others
(including my own). France though does seem rather better.

--
Mike Lane (UK North Yorkshire)
To contact me replace invalid with mike underscore lane

In article
engr.vans.vg,
Giovanni Drogo wrote:

I've used it only once to search for a not-so-expensive hotel in Rome,
but I got a better rate phoning the hotel directly (in general I'm wary
about online booking in this country).

I wonder about this myself.

It seems even smaller, family-run hotels and B&Bs and so on are
well-represented on sites like venere.com and BBplanet.it.

While larger hotels will pay for their own sites (while still taking
reservations through more well-known portals) or use sites like
Italyby.com.


But on these bigger sites, hotel info. isn't there. Then you email the
hotel directly and try to get some info. and they either do not really
check emails and/or they can't respond in English.

By contrast, Switzerland seems to have town-specific sites which will
actually check availability for you and get back to you with several
choices and then you can send queries back.

Maybe not at the forefront but still seems very useful to book online in
Italy.

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:48:28 GMT, Mike Lane wrote:


Firstly we have to drive into the town, find a place to park, and find the
Tourist Office. This can take an hour at least. Then by the time we get to it
we have quite often found it closed. This may be due to a week-end (but we
still want to travel - even on Sundays!), or because it's after hours, or for
some other unknown reason. Even when they're open they often haven't been of
very much help.

The first day we were in Italy in a car we found ourselves at around 4 pm
near Asti (not a tourist destination as you will know). With the help of our
GPS we located the tourist office and miraculously also found a parking
space. In the office though, they were not particularly helpful.

snip

In all candor, this is why I book in advance.

Since you admit you can foresee where you'll be on any particular day
within 20-30 miles, why not just research online and "book yer own
life"?

Yes, I understand that many travelers want to enjoy last-minute
"spontaneity" (which means "frustrating hotel hunt, ending up with
whatever's available" lodging). Some people even chide me for making
spreadsheets of my stops, hotels and expected drive times. But what I
get in return is worry-free travel. I know exactly where my hotel is
and how much it will cost. When I have time, I'll check in, dump my
stuff and head right back out again. I can't imagine closing in at 4pm
and driving around looking for a place to stay. What a waste! At 4pm
I'd rather be looking at sights or watching the locals finish up their
work day.

Believe it or not, I actually ENJOY researching and booking ahead.
Hotel websites are often fonts of information you won't find
elsewhere. I can count the bad choices I've made on one hand. In
almost every case, places I've booked have exceeded expectation.

Try it! Book yer own life!

- TR
- have OpenOffice Calc, will travel.

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008, Mike Lane wrote:

http://www.touringclub.com/ITA/viagg...DEditoria=1445
It is a *selection* of recommended hotels by TCI.

Yes that does look interesting. Thanks very much. I didn't find it myself on
the touringclub web pages for some reason.

Well, I must admit the present arrangement of the web site is even less
obvious as the old one. I attempted a search by title ...

the touringclub web pages for some reason. Is it available to
non-members? My grasp of Italian is not so wonderful that I can
translate the page easily.

All publications advertised on the site are available to everybody (only
some special issues sent with the yearly "member package" are not).
Members ("soci") get a discount on the price.

You should get an english data sheet entering the title in the catalogue
form at http://www.touringclub.com/ENG/Trave...s/default.aspx

I suppose they sell it also online, although I won't trust our Posts for
quick delivery (but maybe they can use some private courier). Otherwise
http://www.touringclub.it//toolbar/dove.asp shows the location of the
TCI "points" ("punti Touring" which should always include a library) or
associated shops ("succursali") which are shops which may offer a more
limited choice.

Do you want a list of ALL available hotels EVERYWHERE ? On one hand I'm

No of course not. I wasn't really referring to TCI in my last post. I just
meant anyone in the tourist industry. Also I realize that a truly

Anyone commercially involved in the tourist industry will most likely
promote only its own associates, or those who pay an advertisement fee
on a directory service. You can use the equivalent of your Yellow Pages
(www.paginegialle.it) but since they've been privatized (and even
before) they were far from complete and/or uniform.

that I want a representative selection of hotels from *every* region,
so that where ever you are you can find *somewhere* to stay. That's
what seems to me is missing.

What is missing is a comprehensive and/or uniform way to get such
information. In the past there were provincial tourist boards (EPT Ente
Provinciale Turismo), who published complete hotel directories for their
area (they were also responsible of the "star" classifications). Then
the thing was devolved to Regions (I'm not sure it the ministry was
cancelled on the same referendum that cancelled the Ministry of
Agriculture, later resurrected as "Ministry of Agricultural Policies")
and each one did in its own way. Tourist boards still exist, but their
area may be smaller (or perhaps larger) than a province. The acronym
should be now APT (A should stay for "Azienda", "enterprise", a popular
word in the mouth of our politicians ... P ... I don't know, it can be
"Provincia(le)" but I know for instance an "APT Riviera delle Palme"
which covers the western part of the province of Savona in Ligury, but
still is an APT.

Some of them may have a web site and this might have an hotel directory
(again in disuniform way, maybe a printable PDF, or maybe some awkwardly
accessible database). One could always try to ask them to mail a printed
version.

way I am not saying that Italy is worse in this respect than most others
(including my own). France though does seem rather better.

I've no experience with France in this respect. I was quite satisfied
with the arrangement in UK and Germany in the '80s, and also in
Scandinavia and the Benelux. Specially for the fact that local tourist
offices were helpful and offered a regular booking service for a minimal
fee to people showing up there. I won't expect that to happen REGULARLY
in Italy (possibly they will give you a list and then you'll do the
booking on your own).

What I can definitely criticize in my country is the lack of
coordination and uniformity.

What can you expect from a country where the Domain Naming and
Registration Authority (originally run by our scientific research
council) carefully reserved the domains for each region name and
3-letter acronym, for each province name and 2-letter car plate acronym,
and for the words "regione", "provincia" and "comune" and then each of
the 8000-odd Comuni (municipal authorities) registered their domain (if
they did it at all) in a totally disordered way ...

from www.comune.milano.it (OK) or www.comune.abanoterme.pd.it (OK) to
www.comunedivattelapesca.it, or www.roccacannuccia.it or even
www.postodelcavolo.com ...

May be the good will of the wikipedians might have done it better, try a
starting point from http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoria:Comuni_italiani

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On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:18:03 +0000, VainGlorious wrote
(in article ):

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:48:28 GMT, Mike Lane wrote:


Firstly we have to drive into the town, find a place to park, and find the
Tourist Office. This can take an hour at least. Then by the time we get to
....
[snip, snip, snip]

In all candor, this is why I book in advance.

Since you admit you can foresee where you'll be on any particular day
within 20-30 miles,

No that's not actually what I said. What I did say was:

"What we like to be able to do on our travels is at around 3 pm wherever we
find ourselves, to be able to look up 2 or 3 hotels within 20 or 30 miles
that we can try."

why not just research online and "book yer own
life"?

[snip]

Try it! Book yer own life!

I can understand this way and the peace of mind it gives, but it just
wouldn't suit our normal type of trip. We do in fact do some booking in
advance particularly for the first day or two. We know the date we are
leaving and roughly what we'll do on the first day, so we have in fact booked
the first night at a place in eastern France.

Thereafter though, things get progressively less certain. Our final
destination is an area of Greece we haven't been to before - the
north-eastern corner including the islands of Samothraki and Thassos. This is
a complete unknown to us; we have no idea what we will find when (if) we get
there. If it isn't as good as we hope, we might want to return earlier and
spend more time in places on the way back. If it is idyllic we might extend
our stay for a day or two. The trip will involve several ferry journeys which
we have experienced enough to know can be unpredictable.

The upshot is that on our return particularly we have no idea which country
we will be in on a particular day, let alone where we'll be at 3 o'clock.
Experiencing the unexpected and coping with any problems that arise is all
part of the enjoyment; it's like mountaineering or any other mildly
adventurous activity where overcoming some difficulty makes the whole
experience more fun.

If everything always goes according to some plan then it all becomes quite
bland and boring like one of those package tours:
Day 1 Belgium
Day 2 France
Day 3 Sight- seeing
etc. etc.

The idea of having a rigid schedule like this that one must stick to whatever
happens, simply appals me. In fact if we tried it I can say with certainty
that things would start to unravel before many days and we would find
ourselves with a string of bookings that we couldn't keep. To me the
advantages of not planning far outweigh the occasional problems.

Much as we enjoy the uncertainty of our normal trips, up to now I have always
been a little disappointed by our experiences in Italy compared to other
countries and I feel we could arrange this better. Perhaps we need a separate
trip there by train and bus which we could organize more thoroughly. For the
moment though Italy is a country we need to drive across. We'll manage this
as we always do. That part could be better, that's all.

--
Mike Lane (UK North Yorkshire)
To contact me replace invalid with mike underscore lane