Lengthening, of Enchantment of the Seas!

Tom & Linda wrote:
"*bicker*" wrote in message
.. .

A Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:41:59 GMT, Benjamin Smith
escribió:

Tom & Linda wrote:

Based on what?

Quality of cuisine, quality of service, ship maintenance,

The first two are clearly subjective determinations,


Not when DiGels or a Nexium are required after eating poor quality seafood.



I think they are measurable although there is a subjective component.
You can look at freshness of ingredients, complexity of dishes,
presentation, variety in the menu and in vegetables, and just how close
it matches its description in its product rung and how it compares to
other products in its product rung. Service can be rated by things like
attentiveness, promptness, and also how close it fits the product's
style or how it compares to previous service received on the same line.
Of course, with previous service, YMMV.

Tom, with us, at least on the Constellation, the wait service was pretty
awful. One of our tablemates hardly ever had silverware after the main
course, the waiter was out of sync with his assistant, we received our
meals later than most tables, and the plating and presentation was
sloppy and inconsistent. Also, he didn't follow established Celebrity
service style. He didn't take ladies orders first, didn't serve them
first, didn't serve from the right. Another obvious problem was the
constant refilling of Claudine's wine without the wine steward asking
her if she wanted a refill. Didn't happen on previous Celebrity cruises.
Never had the maitre d come around and ask how we were being taken care
of. The assistant did not come around in a timely manner with fresh
pepper. When they had orchids on the last two days, our tables didn't
have the orchids and we took them from another table. Also, where were
the tableside sauces? (that magically appeared at the Captain's table).
So, we can definitely point to areas of cutbacks with Celebrity's
established quality from experience. The other way is to read what
people have said about what they received or talk to other people on the
cruise or post cruise. While I'll knock our wait staff at our table for
their poor performance, and I would think that other tables they served
had just as poor service. The lack of palm hearts was a noticeable
cutback (though they magically appeared when requested).

One of the words Tom and I used on the Connie was "slippage". We were
overall pleased with the ship's cleanliness, but there were examples of
slippage, especially in the cuisine area, the area that is supposed to
be Celebrity's standout. I also noticed lack of a capella singers
throughout the ship, and lack of that personal touch that distinguished
previous Celebrity cruises.

A certain amount of knowledge of the product is necessary in judging
quality. Another certain amount of knowledge in a product is necessary
for judging anything. One can't judge a cigar if one isn't a cigar
smoker or has done research and can point out what makes a fine cigar.
It is I think somewhat misleading to take a survey of people new to a
product and point to it as proving that the product is performing well
or up to standards of its specified rung. It is the quality and
knowledge of who is being surveyed that is more accurate in revealing
the true performance of the product. Whether or not it sells and fills
is a matter of tapping into what will bring people in, and it is
dishonest to me to bring in people from a different market, especially
from a lower-rung market, and claim that their positive comments reflect
that the current product is up to the product's established standards.
If the standards are lowered with price, then the product rung has also
been lowered. If the price of admission and services is just lower per
market prices of the time, the overall quality in defining areas of the
product should be maintained to justify the rung. If premium means lower
overall standards now, then marketing and industry is playing games with
categories.


--Tom


bicker's quote:


wherein
each paying passenger holds their own basis for comparison,
each as valid as any others. The third is an objective
measure, if I understand you correctly. I'd be very
interested in reading any information you have on the trends
in ship maintenance for the various lines, especially as it
impacts health and safety. My understanding has been that
things are actually quite impressively high-quality in that
regard, on the mainstream lines.


What's failing?

(no answer)


I didn't say failing and this was addressed.

Ben S.



--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

Tom & Linda wrote:
"*bicker*" wrote in message
.. .

A Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:41:59 GMT, Benjamin Smith
escribió:

Tom & Linda wrote:

Based on what?

Quality of cuisine, quality of service, ship maintenance,

The first two are clearly subjective determinations,


Not when DiGels or a Nexium are required after eating poor quality seafood.



I think they are measurable although there is a subjective component.
You can look at freshness of ingredients, complexity of dishes,
presentation, variety in the menu and in vegetables, and just how close
it matches its description in its product rung and how it compares to
other products in its product rung. Service can be rated by things like
attentiveness, promptness, and also how close it fits the product's
style or how it compares to previous service received on the same line.
Of course, with previous service, YMMV.

Tom, with us, at least on the Constellation, the wait service was pretty
awful. One of our tablemates hardly ever had silverware after the main
course, the waiter was out of sync with his assistant, we received our
meals later than most tables, and the plating and presentation was
sloppy and inconsistent. Also, he didn't follow established Celebrity
service style. He didn't take ladies orders first, didn't serve them
first, didn't serve from the right. Another obvious problem was the
constant refilling of Claudine's wine without the wine steward asking
her if she wanted a refill. Didn't happen on previous Celebrity cruises.
Never had the maitre d come around and ask how we were being taken care
of. The assistant did not come around in a timely manner with fresh
pepper. When they had orchids on the last two days, our tables didn't
have the orchids and we took them from another table. Also, where were
the tableside sauces? (that magically appeared at the Captain's table).
So, we can definitely point to areas of cutbacks with Celebrity's
established quality from experience. The other way is to read what
people have said about what they received or talk to other people on the
cruise or post cruise. While I'll knock our wait staff at our table for
their poor performance, and I would think that other tables they served
had just as poor service. The lack of palm hearts was a noticeable
cutback (though they magically appeared when requested).

One of the words Tom and I used on the Connie was "slippage". We were
overall pleased with the ship's cleanliness, but there were examples of
slippage, especially in the cuisine area, the area that is supposed to
be Celebrity's standout. I also noticed lack of a capella singers
throughout the ship, and lack of that personal touch that distinguished
previous Celebrity cruises.

A certain amount of knowledge of the product is necessary in judging
quality. Another certain amount of knowledge in a product is necessary
for judging anything. One can't judge a cigar if one isn't a cigar
smoker or has done research and can point out what makes a fine cigar.
It is I think somewhat misleading to take a survey of people new to a
product and point to it as proving that the product is performing well
or up to standards of its specified rung. It is the quality and
knowledge of who is being surveyed that is more accurate in revealing
the true performance of the product. Whether or not it sells and fills
is a matter of tapping into what will bring people in, and it is
dishonest to me to bring in people from a different market, especially
from a lower-rung market, and claim that their positive comments reflect
that the current product is up to the product's established standards.
If the standards are lowered with price, then the product rung has also
been lowered. If the price of admission and services is just lower per
market prices of the time, the overall quality in defining areas of the
product should be maintained to justify the rung. If premium means lower
overall standards now, then marketing and industry is playing games with
categories.


--Tom


bicker's quote:


wherein
each paying passenger holds their own basis for comparison,
each as valid as any others. The third is an objective
measure, if I understand you correctly. I'd be very
interested in reading any information you have on the trends
in ship maintenance for the various lines, especially as it
impacts health and safety. My understanding has been that
things are actually quite impressively high-quality in that
regard, on the mainstream lines.


What's failing?

(no answer)


I didn't say failing and this was addressed.

Ben S.



--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

A Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:56:16 GMT, "Tom & Linda"
escribió:
"*bicker*" wrote in message
.. .
Rather, many of those customers feel that they're being
charged too much money already
I've been on over 30 cruises and don't feel that they're charging too much
already.

That's nice. You must not be one of the customers who
posted the sentiments I reported.

How many have you been on?

One cruise is more than enough to be able to read messages
on a message board and report what people there have posted.
rolling eyes


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

A Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:56:16 GMT, "Tom & Linda"
escribió:
"*bicker*" wrote in message
.. .
Rather, many of those customers feel that they're being
charged too much money already
I've been on over 30 cruises and don't feel that they're charging too much
already.

That's nice. You must not be one of the customers who
posted the sentiments I reported.

How many have you been on?

One cruise is more than enough to be able to read messages
on a message board and report what people there have posted.
rolling eyes


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

*bicker* wrote:

A Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:56:16 GMT, "Tom & Linda"
escribió:

"*bicker*" wrote in message
...

Rather, many of those customers feel that they're being
charged too much money already

I've been on over 30 cruises and don't feel that they're charging too much
already.


That's nice. You must not be one of the customers who
posted the sentiments I reported.


How many have you been on?


One cruise is more than enough to be able to read messages
on a message board and report what people there have posted.
rolling eyes


There have been posts through the years you haven't read. There's strong
sentiment that cruise prices are low, as people who have cruised through
the years have paid the higher prices a few years ago. How do you know
what you've read really represents many where you may have not read
enough posts *over time* to determine that?

You are a newbie here and the business principles you espouse almost as
if they were religious gospel don't cover up your deficiency with
knowledge of or experience with the actual product. I'll be kind here
and recommend that you try being less confrontational and sure of
yourself and consider some things that may go against some of your
strongly held convictions and principles as fitting into an overall
representation of opinion and desires in the product and industry.

Ben S.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

*bicker* wrote:

A Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:56:16 GMT, "Tom & Linda"
escribió:

"*bicker*" wrote in message
...

Rather, many of those customers feel that they're being
charged too much money already

I've been on over 30 cruises and don't feel that they're charging too much
already.


That's nice. You must not be one of the customers who
posted the sentiments I reported.


How many have you been on?


One cruise is more than enough to be able to read messages
on a message board and report what people there have posted.
rolling eyes


There have been posts through the years you haven't read. There's strong
sentiment that cruise prices are low, as people who have cruised through
the years have paid the higher prices a few years ago. How do you know
what you've read really represents many where you may have not read
enough posts *over time* to determine that?

You are a newbie here and the business principles you espouse almost as
if they were religious gospel don't cover up your deficiency with
knowledge of or experience with the actual product. I'll be kind here
and recommend that you try being less confrontational and sure of
yourself and consider some things that may go against some of your
strongly held convictions and principles as fitting into an overall
representation of opinion and desires in the product and industry.

Ben S.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

In article . net,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

There have been posts through the years you haven't read. There's strong
sentiment that cruise prices are low, as people who have cruised through
the years have paid the higher prices a few years ago. How do you know
what you've read really represents many where you may have not read
enough posts *over time* to determine that?

Anyone could do just a little research and discover that cruise prices
have been low the last few years. I can't believe anyone would even
want to argue that. It is not just the sentiment, it is the reality.

If they are looking at cruise prices this moment they might discover
that prices are going up. It appears they are going up but judging by
the mailings I got today they are still lower than a few years ago, and
I would say cruises are still a very good value. If anyone thinks
cruise prices are too high, well, maybe they should be looking at
campgrounds for their vacation.

--
Charles

In article . net,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

There have been posts through the years you haven't read. There's strong
sentiment that cruise prices are low, as people who have cruised through
the years have paid the higher prices a few years ago. How do you know
what you've read really represents many where you may have not read
enough posts *over time* to determine that?

Anyone could do just a little research and discover that cruise prices
have been low the last few years. I can't believe anyone would even
want to argue that. It is not just the sentiment, it is the reality.

If they are looking at cruise prices this moment they might discover
that prices are going up. It appears they are going up but judging by
the mailings I got today they are still lower than a few years ago, and
I would say cruises are still a very good value. If anyone thinks
cruise prices are too high, well, maybe they should be looking at
campgrounds for their vacation.

--
Charles

A Mon, 02 Aug 2004 23:44:18 GMT, Benjamin Smith
escribió:
You are a newbie here and the business principles you espouse almost as
if they were religious gospel don't cover up your deficiency with
knowledge of or experience with the actual product.

Your lack of knowledge of basic business doesn't cover up
your deficiency in that regard. So how about this: With
respect to business issues, defer, and I'll defer to you on
issues regarding what takes place on cruises.


--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

"*bicker*" wrote in message
. ..
A Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:56:16 GMT, "Tom & Linda"
escribió:
"*bicker*" wrote in message
.. .
Rather, many of those customers feel that they're being
charged too much money already
I've been on over 30 cruises and don't feel that they're charging too
much
already.

That's nice. You must not be one of the customers who
posted the sentiments I reported.

How many have you been on?

One cruise is more than enough to be able to read messages
on a message board and report what people there have posted.
rolling eyes


One cruise may make you expert enough to read messages. But it might not be
enough to be able to adequately judge what someone else is saying. Since
many of us have multiple cruises (some up to 50+), we tend to look at things
from a broader perspective. With only one sailing, it can't give you a
perspective on different lines. It can't give you a perspective in
different itineraries - like Europe, Bermuda, Alaska, Caribbean, etc.

Plus it can't give you any perspective on past passenger specials for
multiple lines which are delivered by e-mail.... because you can't be a past
passenger on multiple lines.

And reading peoples' comments can be very misleading. And you wouldn't even
know it. Someone who went on their first cruise, or someone who's only ever
been on one line may rave about the food on a sailing. Without having been
on that line in the past, how would you be able to fully interpret their
comments?

When I read comments from someone who's only ever been on one line... I do
the same "rolling eyes". They have nothing to compare to. Someone who's
been on 6-8 different lines... they have the perspective to compare. I may
like different things than they do (we may like different lines), and I may
not agree with everything they say, but I do acknowledge their experience
level.

I've seen advertised prices for $499 for Alaska. Is that charging too much?
What if it's $499 for the cruise and another $900 for the airfare? Is that
charging too much? Or is that the airline charging too much?

I think you need (like Bill Parcells used to say) a few pelts on your belt,
before you can play expert here. Get up to 8-10 sailings on different
lines, and suddenly you have a higher level of credibility.

--Tom