Are Cruise deals over?

In article ,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

OK, I agree with you. To a point. Not with never a good thing for the
majority of passengers. The business-minded folks will tell you right
away the size of the market determines type of product and changes made
to the product. Filling cabins can be good for pax if it keeps prices
low, for those that agree with this. I don't, you don't, but many do.

Not only keeping prices low. Some empty cabins don't make much
difference, but if there are lots of empty cabins the cruise experience
suffers. The ships are built to be filled.

--
Charles

In article ,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

Those that want the older Princess, HAL, and
Celebrity I think can only ask the supercorporations that own them now
for one or two ships in the fleet priced higher than the rest and
operate to *appeal to those that want this type of cruise*.

I have mentioned your mistake before. The mass market lines are
supposed to be big. They are supposed to be priced for, and appeal to
the middle of the middle classes. For the refined experience and higher
prices you desire you need to look at niche fleets like Crystal,
Radisson, Silversea. You can't makeover the mass market lines to be the
way you want because they would sail empty, which they can't do.

--
Charles

In article ,
Benjamin Smith wrote:

Those that want the older Princess, HAL, and
Celebrity I think can only ask the supercorporations that own them now
for one or two ships in the fleet priced higher than the rest and
operate to *appeal to those that want this type of cruise*.

I have mentioned your mistake before. The mass market lines are
supposed to be big. They are supposed to be priced for, and appeal to
the middle of the middle classes. For the refined experience and higher
prices you desire you need to look at niche fleets like Crystal,
Radisson, Silversea. You can't makeover the mass market lines to be the
way you want because they would sail empty, which they can't do.

--
Charles

Ben, you have succinctly stated what few on RTC want to hear.

I quote:

"But, know what it is. It is cruising for an affordable resort, value, fun,
mostly casual behavior and not the escape and relaxation and somewhat
dignified ambiance that some associate with cruising."

The worm has turned.
I understand, from an academic standpoint, why folks who have been cruising
for years are upset with the realities of today's market. I am sorry for
them; who hasn't had a loved thing change from what they loved?

Time marches on; cruising marches with time.

Btw, this is easy for me to say since I got into cruising right after 9/11.
I saw the humongous bargains, took a chance. Even from that date, things
have evolved rapidly, not all to my liking.

I can imagine the disappointment of those who have 10 or 20 years into
cruising and having to deal with this new phase. Only imagine it. Not know
it as they do.

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:07:21 GMT, Benjamin Smith wrote:

To a point. Not with never a good thing for the
majority of passengers. The business-minded folks will tell you right
away the size of the market determines type of product and changes made
to the product. Filling cabins can be good for pax if it keeps prices
low, for those that agree with this. I don't, you don't, but many do.

Sometimes people want a supermarket. Sometimes they want a small store.
Some people want mostly small, specialty stores, go to the store
expecting a certain style, feel, interaction with store's employees and
customers, and comport themselves accordingly. Some go to 24 hour fast
places like 7/11's--casual, a mini-supermarket having some version of
what is in the supermarket as much as it can. Some don't always want the
same thing. Sometimes they want the supermarket with all of its brands
and choices and casual manner, other times they want something more
specialized. That something more specialized costs a bit more, but not
what is in a specialty, gourmet, boutique type of store.

This is akin to what I feel is at play in the current cruise market.
They've made the ships into supermarkets. Some are A&P type everybody
supermarkets, some you find in somewhat chic communities, like say
Dagistinos (are these in other parts of the country or just New York
City and surrounding areas?). Some middle market, bit chic types of
products, lines like Princess, HAL, Celebrity, have opened themselves up
to the A&P customer. I'm not going to be condescending toward this type
of pax, I'm glad a lot of people can cruise. But, know what it is. It is
cruising for an affordable resort, value, fun, mostly casual behavior
and not the escape and relaxation and somewhat dignified ambiance that
some associate with cruising. And, for those that want a somewhat higher
cost cruising with something of a dignified ambiance can only find it in
parts, and features match, some version of same is on the more casual
supermarket ships. Those that want the older Princess, HAL, and
Celebrity I think can only ask the supercorporations that own them now
for one or two ships in the fleet priced higher than the rest and
operate to *appeal to those that want this type of cruise*. Right now,
these lines are considered in the same group as the A&P ships by most
cruisers and they cruise them for the same reason they cruise others.
They might as well not even be a brand, just fulfill the popular
cruiser's wishes.

Ben, you have succinctly stated what few on RTC want to hear.

I quote:

"But, know what it is. It is cruising for an affordable resort, value, fun,
mostly casual behavior and not the escape and relaxation and somewhat
dignified ambiance that some associate with cruising."

The worm has turned.
I understand, from an academic standpoint, why folks who have been cruising
for years are upset with the realities of today's market. I am sorry for
them; who hasn't had a loved thing change from what they loved?

Time marches on; cruising marches with time.

Btw, this is easy for me to say since I got into cruising right after 9/11.
I saw the humongous bargains, took a chance. Even from that date, things
have evolved rapidly, not all to my liking.

I can imagine the disappointment of those who have 10 or 20 years into
cruising and having to deal with this new phase. Only imagine it. Not know
it as they do.

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:07:21 GMT, Benjamin Smith wrote:

To a point. Not with never a good thing for the
majority of passengers. The business-minded folks will tell you right
away the size of the market determines type of product and changes made
to the product. Filling cabins can be good for pax if it keeps prices
low, for those that agree with this. I don't, you don't, but many do.

Sometimes people want a supermarket. Sometimes they want a small store.
Some people want mostly small, specialty stores, go to the store
expecting a certain style, feel, interaction with store's employees and
customers, and comport themselves accordingly. Some go to 24 hour fast
places like 7/11's--casual, a mini-supermarket having some version of
what is in the supermarket as much as it can. Some don't always want the
same thing. Sometimes they want the supermarket with all of its brands
and choices and casual manner, other times they want something more
specialized. That something more specialized costs a bit more, but not
what is in a specialty, gourmet, boutique type of store.

This is akin to what I feel is at play in the current cruise market.
They've made the ships into supermarkets. Some are A&P type everybody
supermarkets, some you find in somewhat chic communities, like say
Dagistinos (are these in other parts of the country or just New York
City and surrounding areas?). Some middle market, bit chic types of
products, lines like Princess, HAL, Celebrity, have opened themselves up
to the A&P customer. I'm not going to be condescending toward this type
of pax, I'm glad a lot of people can cruise. But, know what it is. It is
cruising for an affordable resort, value, fun, mostly casual behavior
and not the escape and relaxation and somewhat dignified ambiance that
some associate with cruising. And, for those that want a somewhat higher
cost cruising with something of a dignified ambiance can only find it in
parts, and features match, some version of same is on the more casual
supermarket ships. Those that want the older Princess, HAL, and
Celebrity I think can only ask the supercorporations that own them now
for one or two ships in the fleet priced higher than the rest and
operate to *appeal to those that want this type of cruise*. Right now,
these lines are considered in the same group as the A&P ships by most
cruisers and they cruise them for the same reason they cruise others.
They might as well not even be a brand, just fulfill the popular
cruiser's wishes.

Charles wrote:

In article ,
Benjamin Smith wrote:


Those that want the older Princess, HAL, and
Celebrity I think can only ask the supercorporations that own them now
for one or two ships in the fleet priced higher than the rest and
operate to *appeal to those that want this type of cruise*.


I have mentioned your mistake before. The mass market lines are
supposed to be big. They are supposed to be priced for, and appeal to
the middle of the middle classes. For the refined experience and higher
prices you desire you need to look at niche fleets like Crystal,
Radisson, Silversea. You can't makeover the mass market lines to be the
way you want because they would sail empty, which they can't do.


You are right about the mass market lines. However, HAL, Princess, and
Celebrity were more middle market lines appealing to at least those with
"upper" middle class tastes than mass market lines, that was their
former appeal. HAL has the one ship that appeals to the passenger
looking for the more refined cruise at a somewhat higher price in the
Prinsendam, and its working out well for them with strong demand.
Princess has the former Ren ships, I don't know how well they are
working out for Princess. My idea isn't for the full current HAL,
Princess, or Celebrity fleets, only one or two ships of their fleets.
The rest can be as they currently operate. As for Crystal, Radisson,
they are in a higher rung, and would be a step up from a ship like the
Prinsendam. Silversea is even more exclusive and expensive than Radisson
and Crystal, and rarely discounts.

Ben S.

Charles wrote:

In article ,
Benjamin Smith wrote:


Those that want the older Princess, HAL, and
Celebrity I think can only ask the supercorporations that own them now
for one or two ships in the fleet priced higher than the rest and
operate to *appeal to those that want this type of cruise*.


I have mentioned your mistake before. The mass market lines are
supposed to be big. They are supposed to be priced for, and appeal to
the middle of the middle classes. For the refined experience and higher
prices you desire you need to look at niche fleets like Crystal,
Radisson, Silversea. You can't makeover the mass market lines to be the
way you want because they would sail empty, which they can't do.


You are right about the mass market lines. However, HAL, Princess, and
Celebrity were more middle market lines appealing to at least those with
"upper" middle class tastes than mass market lines, that was their
former appeal. HAL has the one ship that appeals to the passenger
looking for the more refined cruise at a somewhat higher price in the
Prinsendam, and its working out well for them with strong demand.
Princess has the former Ren ships, I don't know how well they are
working out for Princess. My idea isn't for the full current HAL,
Princess, or Celebrity fleets, only one or two ships of their fleets.
The rest can be as they currently operate. As for Crystal, Radisson,
they are in a higher rung, and would be a step up from a ship like the
Prinsendam. Silversea is even more exclusive and expensive than Radisson
and Crystal, and rarely discounts.

Ben S.

Charles wrote:

In article ,
Benjamin Smith wrote:


Those that want the older Princess, HAL, and
Celebrity I think can only ask the supercorporations that own them now
for one or two ships in the fleet priced higher than the rest and
operate to *appeal to those that want this type of cruise*.


I have mentioned your mistake before. The mass market lines are
supposed to be big. They are supposed to be priced for, and appeal to
the middle of the middle classes. For the refined experience and higher
prices you desire you need to look at niche fleets like Crystal,
Radisson, Silversea. You can't makeover the mass market lines to be the
way you want because they would sail empty, which they can't do.


You are right about the mass market lines. However, HAL, Princess, and
Celebrity were more middle market lines appealing to at least those with
"upper" middle class tastes than mass market lines, that was their
former appeal. HAL has the one ship that appeals to the passenger
looking for the more refined cruise at a somewhat higher price in the
Prinsendam, and its working out well for them with strong demand.
Princess has the former Ren ships, I don't know how well they are
working out for Princess. My idea isn't for the full current HAL,
Princess, or Celebrity fleets, only one or two ships of their fleets.
The rest can be as they currently operate. As for Crystal, Radisson,
they are in a higher rung, and would be a step up from a ship like the
Prinsendam. Silversea is even more exclusive and expensive than Radisson
and Crystal, and rarely discounts.

Ben S.

*bicker* wrote:




I'm not going to be condescending toward this type of pax


And I really do appreciate that. I've exchanged messages
today on CC with some cretins who share your sentiments
regarding the industry's offerings, but don't share your
class and maturity.

Bicker,

This complement is highly appreciated, especially after some of our
testy exchanges, and a class move on your part.

Ben S.



--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html

*bicker* wrote:




I'm not going to be condescending toward this type of pax


And I really do appreciate that. I've exchanged messages
today on CC with some cretins who share your sentiments
regarding the industry's offerings, but don't share your
class and maturity.

Bicker,

This complement is highly appreciated, especially after some of our
testy exchanges, and a class move on your part.

Ben S.



--
bicker®
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/D...ry_040602.html