"Special" swimming times for Muslims in UK public swimming pools

The regulations on religious discrimination are a long time in coming
out of the government maw, so in effect we have none on the statute
books at the moment.

But there is an established principle that anti-discrimination rules
don't stop dedicated provision to counter inequalities. Rather the
contrary. If you could show that an apparently equitable rule tends to
disadvantage a particular group (such as insisting on a given command
of English language for a job that doesn't require it), it could well
be counted as an indirect discrimination. If there is nothing stopping
men from swimming at any other time, a set session for Muslim women
wouldn't be as much of a discrimination against men as permanently
mixed swimming would be against Muslim women. However, there might be
an interesting argument about whether non-Muslim women would be
prevented from swimming at such a time: I'm not sure if there's any
sort of prohibition in Islam against Muslim women undressing in the
presence on non-Muslim women.

PJW

On 17 Dec 2006 01:26:26 -0800, "Jordan"
wrote:


David Johnston wrote:
No. The point of having a specific swim time for Muslim women is so
that they can strip down freely. The original poster was being
misleading.

Doesn't having a "specific swim time for Muslim women" violate laws
against religious and gender discrimination (*), even in Britain? I
know that the Seattle law, if challenged, would almost certainly be
struck down as unconstitutional in American courts for that reason.

- Jordan

(*) What if a non-Muslim woman wants to swim at that time? What if a
man does? The person would under that law be denied access to a public
facility on account of faith or gender -- and "separate but equal" was
explicitly struck down by the US courts as far back as the 1950's.

In article , Patrick Wallace says...

The regulations on religious discrimination are a long time in coming
out of the government maw, so in effect we have none on the statute
books at the moment.

If there is nothing stopping
men from swimming at any other time, a set session for Muslim women
wouldn't be as much of a discrimination against men as permanently
mixed swimming would be against Muslim women. However, there might be
an interesting argument about whether non-Muslim women would be
prevented from swimming at such a time: I'm not sure if there's any
sort of prohibition in Islam against Muslim women undressing in the
presence on non-Muslim women.


I think it is discrimatory. I would disagree with
special swimming times for any religions: Christian,
Muslim, Hinudu, Jewish, whatever.
But there are only special concessions in this case
for Muslims. Non-Muslims can only join the sessions
if they dress in Islamic clothes. And of course
the sessions are segregated. Do we want to encourage
segregation in our society? Do we want to enforce
Islamic dress?

When the practise of a religion doesn't affect the
rest of us, then fine. But when it starts to enfringe
on the rights of the rest of us -- then that is
definitely not fine.


--

~*~*Emma*~*~
http://www.carols.org.uk/we_wish_you..._chris1mas.htm

B J Foster wrote:
PJ O'Donovan wrote:
Friday, December 08, 2006
Public swimming halted for 'Muslim afternoon'

In a further example that the values and aspirations of Islam are
antithetical to those of the United Kingdom, Croydon Council has
instituted 'Muslim only' swimming times in its public swimming
baths.

Looks like a council responding to the needs of their constituents, aka
'democracy'. The council's DP also focuses on the needs of other special
interest groups, such as "children, youth and elderly persons".


Well yes, but these groups are inclusive of all religions,
all races, men and women, boys and girls.
I think it's a bad move to start segregating ourselves
according to religion, race, gender or anything else.

If a religious group cannot swim with everyone else, then
so be it. But I don't think we should accommodate
that particular belief and make concessions for it.
Especially when that belief segregates one section
of society from another.

Let is be knownst that on 19 Dec 2006 15:53:28 -0800, Emma
writted:

In article , Patrick Wallace says...

The regulations on religious discrimination are a long time in coming
out of the government maw, so in effect we have none on the statute
books at the moment.

If there is nothing stopping
men from swimming at any other time, a set session for Muslim women
wouldn't be as much of a discrimination against men as permanently
mixed swimming would be against Muslim women. However, there might be
an interesting argument about whether non-Muslim women would be
prevented from swimming at such a time: I'm not sure if there's any
sort of prohibition in Islam against Muslim women undressing in the
presence on non-Muslim women.


I think it is discrimatory. I would disagree with
special swimming times for any religions: Christian,
Muslim, Hinudu, Jewish, whatever.
But there are only special concessions in this case
for Muslims. Non-Muslims can only join the sessions
if they dress in Islamic clothes. And of course
the sessions are segregated. Do we want to encourage
segregation in our society? Do we want to enforce
Islamic dress?

When the practise of a religion doesn't affect the
rest of us, then fine. But when it starts to enfringe
on the rights of the rest of us -- then that is
definitely not fine.

I view nuns as an infringement on my right to perve at their bodies. I
find solice in knowing they're always plump and unattractive anyway.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 01:59:46 +0100, Deeply Filled Mortician
wrote:



I view nuns as an infringement on my right to perve at their bodies. I
find solice in knowing they're always plump and unattractive anyway.

http://www.newsnot.com/~emonk/pictur.../Nun-sense.jpg


Keith, Bristol, UK

jb wrote:
"Addinall" wrote in message
ups.com...

jb wrote:
"Addinall" wrote in message
ups.com...

David Moss wrote:
In article om,
writes...

Croydon Council has made provision for Muslim women outside its
normal
opening hours, and the Shari'a dress code is to be covered from
the
neck down to the ankle. Have you ever tried swimming wrapped in a
sheet?

I have swum in overalls. Its not that hard really.

And I. Done a few laps in Greens as well!

Do you have a point in posting this stuff?

Muslims are BAD...

Usual crap David.

It is bad when they demand special treatment because they are Muslim.

Why?

Wrong answer!
You are the one making the assertation that special times for Moslem women
are A OK, you therefore have to make your case that special treatment for
Moslems is correct.

It is compounded when the PC brigade agree with them.

Who are the PC Brigade?

The people such as yourself who appear to be saying the Moslems are a
special case.

Not really. Any group who have a special requirement for pool use are a
special case. A couple of ho-hum special cases that spring to mind are
competitive swimmers and naturists. Competitive swimmers regularly get
exclusive use of the pool when they want to hold races and carnivals.
As to naturists, Sylvia Else would love it if you asked how to attend
the special nude swimming sessions she is organising at the UNSW pool
in Sydney.

Are you going to condemn swimming clubs and naturists too, or will you
stick with racism?

DM
personal opinion only

wrote:
jb wrote:

Wrong answer!
You are the one making the assertation that special times for Moslem women
are A OK, you therefore have to make your case that special treatment for
Moslems is correct.

It is compounded when the PC brigade agree with them.

Who are the PC Brigade?

The people such as yourself who appear to be saying the Moslems are a
special case.

Not really. Any group who have a special requirement for pool use are a
special case. A couple of ho-hum special cases that spring to mind are
competitive swimmers and naturists. Competitive swimmers regularly get
exclusive use of the pool when they want to hold races and carnivals.

But that is inclusive of all religions/races/gender.
Segregated swimming along the lines of religion and
gender is not inclusive.

The idea that segregation is not helpful in society
is a new concept in the UK but it's very newsworthy
now. It was virtually a taboo subject in the past,
and perhaps that's still the case in Australia.

DVH wrote:
"David Johnston" wrote in message
...
On 8 Dec 2006 18:03:06 -0800, "Wink Nightingale"
wrote:


David Johnston wrote:
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 23:43:36 GMT, "DVH" wrote:


wrote in message
ups.com...
Who the **** is this dick O'Donovan? Is he mentally ill? Listen,
sunshine, **** off and take your bigoted crap somewhere else, OK?

How is it bigoted, Mike? PJ's just reporting [what I assume to be] the
facts.

Your assumption is hasty. It's most certainly not a fact that muslim
women are going to swim while fully dressed.

Since you're not allowed in while they are there, how could you
possibly know?

By knowing that the law allows them to uncover with other women and
that there's no way anyone could swim in a hijab.

On the beaches of Egypt and Libya the women do indeed swim fully-clothed,
unveiled but otherwise draped in the usual garb.

And also in Hindu India. (try swimming with 6m of sari fabric wrapped
around you!)
It's a western thing - taking most of your clothes off in public I mean.

Jordan wrote:
David Johnston wrote:
No. The point of having a specific swim time for Muslim women is so
that they can strip down freely. The original poster was being
misleading.

Doesn't having a "specific swim time for Muslim women" violate laws
against religious and gender discrimination (*), even in Britain?

I would have thought women-only swimming sessions were discriminatory
too, but we have had them for as long as I can remember.

wrote:
wrote:
jb wrote:

Wrong answer!
You are the one making the assertation that special times for Moslem women
are A OK, you therefore have to make your case that special treatment for
Moslems is correct.

It is compounded when the PC brigade agree with them.

Who are the PC Brigade?

The people such as yourself who appear to be saying the Moslems are a
special case.

Not really. Any group who have a special requirement for pool use are a
special case. A couple of ho-hum special cases that spring to mind are
competitive swimmers and naturists. Competitive swimmers regularly get
exclusive use of the pool when they want to hold races and carnivals.

But that is inclusive of all religions/races/gender.

Nope. Plenty of "girl only" swimming venues in this
country, your country and the USSA.

Still have a club in Brisbane that today voted not
to allow women full membership. Good old Tatts.
It gave me great pleasure to see Sarino Russo
whining out on the street.

Mark Addinall.

Segregated swimming along the lines of religion and
gender is not inclusive.

The idea that segregation is not helpful in society
is a new concept in the UK but it's very newsworthy
now. It was virtually a taboo subject in the past,
and perhaps that's still the case in Australia.