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Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact, high-altitudehypoxia



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 18th, 2014, 01:56 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
Home Guy
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Posts: 24
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact, high-altitudehypoxia

Just a comment about what a terrible position this put the Malaysian
military in. They were backed into a corner and had to admit:

a) they were not monitoring radar returns in real time from targets not
broadcasting ACT beacons. Because if they were, they would have
admitted to trying to contact the target as the first in a series
of actions that any self-respecting military would or should take

b) because of (a), they did not scramble a jet to investigate the
target.

This is why it took several days for the world to learn what data the
Malaysian military had. They knew they had radar data, but how to tell
the world - without revealing (a) and (b) above?


==========
Flight 370 did a wide U-turn in the middle of the night over the Gulf of
Thailand and then spent nearly half an hour swooping over two large
Malaysian cities and various towns and villages, there was apparently
silence. As far as investigators have been able to determine, there have
been no phone calls, Twitter or Weibo postings, Instagram photos or any
other communication from anyone aboard the aircraft since it was
diverted.

According to military radar, the aircraft was flying extremely high
shortly after its turn — as much as 45,000 feet, above the certified
maximum altitude of 43,100 feet for the Boeing 777-200. It then
descended as it crossed Peninsular Malaysia, flying as low as 23,000
feet before moving up to 29,500 feet and cruising there.

The hijacked planes on Sept. 11 were flying very low toward urban
targets when passengers and flight attendants made calls from those
aircraft. Base station signals spread out considerably over distance.
So cellphones in a plane a few miles up, like Flight 370, would receive
little if any signal. Base station design has improved since the Sept.
11 attacks to provide better, more focused coverage of specific areas on
the ground. But that also means somewhat less signal intensity is wasted
in directions where callers are unlikely to be located, such as directly
overhead.

Cellphones transmit at one watt or less, while base stations typically
transmit at 20 watts and sometimes much more. So even if a cellphone
showed that it was receiving a signal while aloft, it might not be able
to transmit a signal that was strong enough to make a connection. The
metal in an aircraft reduces cellphone signals somewhat. If a passenger
had pressed a cellphone against a plastic window with a line of sight to
a cellphone tower then it is possible a connection might have been made
even at a fairly high altitude, because plastic barely blocks a
cellphone signal at all.
============


So it's possible given a phone held in contact with a window might have
been able to transmit a text message to a line-of-sight tower, even if
the plane was 20k feet in the air. It seems likely that such a geometry
did exist for some period of time. If no such transmission took place,
then:

a) passengers were alive, but unaware there was anything wrong with
the flight to try such measures to make contact using their phone

b) passengers were alive, did realize the plane was being taken off
course, but did not try the cell-phone-against-the-window trick,
(or they did try but it didn't work)

c) passengers were unconcious or dead when in range of cell phone
towers

I can say that GPS reception in a plane works somewhat well, given the
unit is near a window. An old unit I have (Garmin Geko, circa
2004/2005) needs to be pressed up against a plane's window in order to
get a GPS fix. A newer model (like a car GPS, TomTom 1400 or Garmin
Nuvi) can still get a fix even when placed on the seat-back tray of a
window seat. FM radio reception works quite well, even when sitting in
an isle seat in a large plane. AM radio reception does not work at all,
even if the radio is pressed against a window.

I've made it a habbit of using a GPS of one sort or another on at least
half of the flights I've been on since 2005. I've programmed the
coordinates of every airport that I've flown to (or from) and when
landing, on approach, I can even predict which runway I'm lined up for.

Had I been on that flight (and I can hear the wise cracks now) I would
have known we were off course, and at what altitude we were at (yes, my
Geko tells me that).


=============
Many aircraft carry satellite phones, and the Malaysia Airlines jet was
equipped with them in business class. The plane continued to send
satellite pings for nearly seven hours after it was apparently diverted.

But the satellite phones are part of an aircraft’s in-flight
entertainment system. If someone deliberately diverted a plane and
turned off its transponder and other communications equipment, that
person is likely to have disabled the in-flight entertainment system so
that passengers could not figure out from the map that they were flying
in the wrong direction, said a telecommunications expert who insisted on
anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the news media.

If the entertainment system was turned off, the satellite phones also
would not work, the expert said.
==============


The only question here is this: Can the entertainment system be turned
on from outside the cockpit - or is there a master power switch for the
system in the cockpit?

One thing is clear - once the system is turned off from cockpit, the
crew will be trying to find out what's wrong with it, and will be trying
to contact the pilots in the (presumably locked) cockpit. For how long
that could happen - who knows.

What the world should learn from this is that there should be an
alternate communications radio in the tail of passenger planes THAT
CAN'T BE TURNED OFF FROM THE COCKPIT.


===============
Investigators do not know if anyone aboard the plane even tried to make
a call. One theory is that someone may have intentionally depressurized
the plane as it soared to an unusually high altitude right after the
turnaround, which would have quickly rendered passengers and flight
attendants unconscious, pilots said. Whoever diverted the plane could
have disabled the release of oxygen masks.
===============


Now there is the block-buster. The release of passenger oxygen masks
can be disabled from the cockpit? That makes the following all the more
pertinent:


=========
Dr. James Ho, an associate professor of medicine at Hong Kong
University, said that death could come within minutes if someone were
the equivalent of outdoors at 45,000 feet. But without information on
the speed of depressurization, it is hard to predict the medical
consequences, he said.

A table used by pilots for “time of useful consciousness” without an
oxygen supplement at various altitudes shows only nine to 15 seconds at
45,000 feet, compared with five to 10 minutes at 22,000 feet.
=========


So we have a plane-load of dead people.


=========
Mobile phone service is widely available in sizable areas of western
China and eastern Kazakhstan, raising the question of why nobody from
the plane has tried to make a call if it did fly north and land safely,
instead of flying out into the Indian Ocean until it ran out of fuel.
==========


Because they were all dead. Or if not, and if it landed, it landed
somewhere where it was known there is no functional cell towers. Or it
crashed (on land or water) or while trying to make a controlled landing
on land.
  #2  
Old March 18th, 2014, 02:40 AM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
Home Guy
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Posts: 24
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact,high-altitude hypoxia

wrote:

#1 this probably does show that the radar network in 3d world
countries is largely unwatched or spotty at best.


At least military radar. At 2 AM.

I guess the thinking is that a terrorist hijacking, with the intent on
flying a plane into a landmark, requires VFR conditions - daylight.

#2 Cell phones will be useless most of the places they were


I would bet a phone being able to send a text message if it was 10 miles
from a tower, 20k feet in the air, with the phone held against a
window. Possibly 20 miles.

#4 dropping the masks would get everyone back in their seats. 10
minutes later they would be slowly dying of hypoxia, still
sucking on a dwindling oxygen supply from a depleted generator.


A few people kicking at the door would keep kicking at the door
regardless if the masks drop.

And again I wonder what the rational is for putting a switch in the
cockpit that can PREVENT the masks from dropping. I don't think a lot
of people knew that.

And - there is usually one or more medical kits on board that has a tank
of breathable air. I'd be reaching for one of those - behind the
smaller over-head compartment doors.

And there should be an emergency radio in the tail of the plane that
can't be turned off from the cockpit.

The open question is whether he went inland or out to a place
with very deep water where the plane would never be found and
punched it in at mach 1+ in a powered dive.


I speculated previously that an attempt at a controlled landing on water
(regardless how "futile") would probably result in a smaller, less
obvious debris field.
  #3  
Old March 18th, 2014, 01:58 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
Home^Guy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact,high-altitude hypoxia

wrote:

I guess the thinking is that a terrorist hijacking, with the
intent on flying a plane into a landmark, requires VFR
conditions - daylight.


That is why they suspect the flight crew or another real pilot


No, that wasn't my point.

My point is that in terms of the military watching for radar signals
24/7 from planes not transmitting ATC beacons, it's obvious that the
Malasian military wasn't doing that, because the thinking is that anyone
trying to hijack a plane obviously wants to fly the plane into a
landmark, and they can really only do that with the aid of daylight.

If the goal was not to fly the plane into a landmark, but just fly and
crash it anywhere in a suicide mission, night or day, it doesn't have to
be a member of the crew - or anyone with flying experience.

I would bet a phone being able to send a text message if it was
10 miles from a tower, 20k feet in the air, with the phone held
against a window. Possibly 20 miles.


The excursion to 20,000 feet many miles off the coast of Sumatra
over the indian ocean.


If you say so. I'm not aware of all the different versions of the known
flight path of this plane.

You also have the problem that cell tower antennas are optimized
toward the ground, not up in the air.


Near the tower, yes. But the radiation pattern is likely to be dounut
shaped, which means there will be some vertical spread of the signal at
some distance from the tower.

And again I wonder what the rational is for putting a switch in
the cockpit that can PREVENT the masks from dropping. I don't
think a lot of people knew that.


You didn't respond to that point.

I am not sure the masks didn't drop


That's not the point. Why would designers give the pilots the ability
to prevent them from dropping?

and a person without oxygen would not be kicking that door long
at 45,000 feet


I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning why the designers would give
pilots the ability to PREVENT masks from dropping.

At 45,000, there really isn't any.


The plane would be stalling at 45k feet. I've heard some pilots say
that anything over 40k feet is a crapshoot in terms of being able to
keep a plane like that flying.

The oxygen generators behind those masks are only meant for a
few minutes,


The several sources I've read indicate 15 minutes.

And there should be an emergency radio in the tail of the plane
that can't be turned off from the cockpit.


No comment about that either eh?

I speculated previously that an attempt at a controlled landing
on water (regardless how "futile") would probably result in a
smaller, less obvious debris field.


Sully is the rare exception to the normal outcome of a "ditch" in
the water. He was on a slick calm river. A 3 foot rolling sea
would send that plane pitch poling and break it apart.


I'm not saying that it would have been possible to land that 777 on
water just as intact as Sully did. In fact I would say it would be 99%
impossible.

I'm saying that just attempting to do so, to put as little destructive
force on the plane as possible, would or could result in a smaller
debris field, even in the likely event the plane broke up into large
pieces.

I'm saying that if the pilot was intent on suicide, with a side order of
mystery, that he WOULD attempt a soft landing on water, instead of
barreling in nose-first at mach-1.
  #4  
Old March 18th, 2014, 03:39 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
Kurt Ullman
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Posts: 1,653
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact, high-altitude hypoxia

In article ,
Home^Guy "Home"@@Guy . com wrote:

My point is that in terms of the military watching for radar signals
24/7 from planes not transmitting ATC beacons, it's obvious that the
Malasian military wasn't doing that, because the thinking is that anyone
trying to hijack a plane obviously wants to fly the plane into a
landmark, and they can really only do that with the aid of daylight.


I don't know for sure, but did the plane actually enter the
airspace of Malaysia after turning off the transponder. If they did not
and/or was heading away from Malaysia, why would they care? They can
hardly take umbrage at every plane that wonders by unless there is some
kind of hostile profile.

At 45,000, there really isn't any.


The plane would be stalling at 45k feet. I've heard some pilots say
that anything over 40k feet is a crapshoot in terms of being able to
keep a plane like that flying.


The rated ceiling for the 777 is 43,100. Given the FAA's penchant for
safety buffers, I would find it hard to believe that 45K is so far out
of parameters.
--
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital."
-- Aaron Levenstein
  #5  
Old March 18th, 2014, 03:59 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
H0me^Gvy
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Posts: 2
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact,high-altitude hypoxia

Kurt Ullman wrote:

The plane would be stalling at 45k feet. I've heard some pilots
say that anything over 40k feet is a crapshoot in terms of being
able to keep a plane like that flying.


The rated ceiling for the 777 is 43,100.


With what?

No passengers and maybe half a tank of gas?

How about a full plane, with a huge load of avgas for a long flight?
  #6  
Old March 18th, 2014, 05:40 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
Kurt Ullman
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Posts: 1,653
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact, high-altitude hypoxia

In article ,
H0me^Gvy "H0me"@@Gvy . com wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:

The plane would be stalling at 45k feet. I've heard some pilots
say that anything over 40k feet is a crapshoot in terms of being
able to keep a plane like that flying.


The rated ceiling for the 777 is 43,100.


With what?

No passengers and maybe half a tank of gas?

How about a full plane, with a huge load of avgas for a long flight?


That is what the FAA certified it to fly. They put no restrictions. I
really hate to put facts into your flights (get it?) of fantasy.
--
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital."
-- Aaron Levenstein
  #7  
Old March 18th, 2014, 10:40 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
Robert Green
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Posts: 1
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact, high-altitude hypoxia

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message

stuff snipped

The rated ceiling for the 777 is 43,100. Given the FAA's penchant for
safety buffers, I would find it hard to believe that 45K is so far out
of parameters.


If Shah rose that high to extinguish a bad fire, I don't think he intended
to stay there long and that's bolstered by the fact the plane did drop down
to an altitude where the passengers and crew wouldn't die from lack of
oxygen in the air.

--
Bobby G.


  #8  
Old March 19th, 2014, 03:40 AM posted to rec.travel.air
nam sak
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Posts: 29
Default Flight MH370: Malaysian radar, passenger phone contact, high-altitude hypoxia

In the case of fire if they had enough time and wherewithall and
control to turn the plane around and fly it up and down to that extent
then it seems equally likely they would have been able to make a
mayday and should have done.

The absence of a mayday suggests sudden and catastrophic failure which
does not appear to have happended in this case if the information
being given is to be believed.

I think until the aircraft is found this one will remain an enigma.





On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:40:12 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message

If Shah rose that high to extinguish a bad fire, I don't think he intended
to stay there long and that's bolstered by the fact the plane did drop down
to an altitude where the passengers and crew wouldn't die from lack of
oxygen in the air.

  #9  
Old March 24th, 2014, 03:59 AM posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers,rec.travel.air
Ho Me Gu Y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Flight MH370: China and the gold equation

Metspitzer wrote:

Glenn Beck says 20 of the passengers were semiconductor experts.

The cargo changed from mangosteens to lithium batteries.

It is starting to seem like "The West" is searching for a plane that
was hijacked by the US.


If it was hijacked by the pilots for the value of it's cargo - that
means only one thing.

Gold.

China's been on a gold-buying binge for the past year - and not on
paper. Taking actual physical possession. Which means gold in the
hold.

That, and don't overlook those chinese passengers each bringing back a
kilo or two of gold in their luggage. The Indians are doing it by the
planeload themselves since their gov't put controls on gold imports.

China is in the midst of a liquidity crisis starting about a week or two
ago, and the ultra rich are selling their expensive foreign properties
to raise case.
  #10  
Old April 4th, 2014, 03:12 PM posted to alt.home.repair,rec.travel.air,misc.consumers
Ho MeGu Y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Flight MH370: Altitude issues, flight-recorder operation

trader_4 wrote:

Another thing no one has mentioned. Malaysian military said they had
it on radar somewhere over the Straits at 29,500 ft. No one AFAIK
has commented on that. That's not a standard altitude.


I've monitored the flights I've been on using hand-held GPS, and I can
tell you that flight altitudes rarely match up with what the pilots
claim to be their cruise altitude or in-flight map display. Being off
by 500 feet is common.

Altimeters based on air pressure are not as accurate as consumer GPS.

ATC or military ground radar also is not that good at measuring
altitude.

But I'll tell you what is or has gotten little comment: The fact that
the plane was carrying a load of batteries (lithium ion? lithium
polymer?).

I'll tell you what happened: The cargo load was not secure, it shifted
during takeoff causing damage, batteries were punctured, fire ensued,
plane systems were damaged, smoke and fumes incapacitated passengers and
crew, plane flew some random course until it ran out of fuel.

Fire damage could have disrupted power to black boxes, so there is a
chance that they stopped recording much closer to the start of the
flight and would therefore contain extremely relavent and useful
information during the phase of the flight where humans were likely to
be alive, concious, or otherwise in control of the plane.
 




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