Another CO Pet Peeve

"Binyamin Dissen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:53:09 -0700 "PTRAVEL"
wrote:

[ snipped ]

:Next thing I knew, the captain was standing next to me. He said, "I'm
the
:captain, and I'm telling you to leave the plane." I said, "Okay -- I
always
:follow the instructions of the crew. I'm leaving." I got up, and
started
:to get my bags out of the overhead. He said, "You don't have to do
that."
:I said, "Yes I do. My bags travel with me. If you're throwing me off
this
:flight, I'll take them off, too."

The captain was removing you from the flight and not only didn't INSIST
that
you remove your bags, was willing to let you leave them behind??

That doesn't make much sense, especially post 9/11.

Nothing about the incident made sense.


[ snipped ]

--
Binyamin Dissen
http://www.dissensoftware.com

"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"Binyamin Dissen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:53:09 -0700 "PTRAVEL"
wrote:

[ snipped ]
:Next thing I knew, the captain was standing next to me. He said, "I'm the
:captain, and I'm telling you to leave the plane." I said, "Okay -- I always
:follow the instructions of the crew. I'm leaving." I got up, and started
:to get my bags out of the overhead. He said, "You don't have to do that."
:I said, "Yes I do. My bags travel with me. If you're throwing me off this
:flight, I'll take them off, too."

The captain was removing you from the flight and not only didn't INSIST
that you remove your bags, was willing to let you leave them behind??

That doesn't make much sense, especially post 9/11.

Nothing about the incident made sense.


It made perfect sense to me! Let's go back to your original narrative.

You said above "I always follow the instructions of the crew ...".

No, you didn't. And you didn't even realize, in hindsight, that you didn't!

PTR The FA takes both boarding passes, comes
PTR back in a few minutes and says, rather curtly, "You've cancelled your
PTR flight. You'll have to leave the plane." I toldl her that I hadn't
PTR cancelled my flight (remember, at this point I had no idea that the desk
PTR agent had screwed up), and I wasn't leaving the plane unless the Captain
PTR told me to. The FA left, and I pulled

The FA was a member of the crew, wasn't she?

At THAT point, all the FA and the Captain knew was that somebody cancelled
your flight. Even you didn't know who did it.

You were making a SCENE, and probably obstructing the traffic of other
passengers, and you forced the issue of having the Captain to tell you to
leave the plane, while everyone (yourself included) had a chance to find
out what exactly happened.


At THAT point, all ensuing events pointed to the fact that the Captain had
ALREADY knew that a mistake had been made by SOMEONE, and had decided to
accommodate you even if it was YOU who made the mistake, so that you wouldn't
miss your flight, by giving you an available seat, whether it's in coach or
First Class.

I think THAT was what explained:

:I got up, and started
:to get my bags out of the overhead. He said, "You don't have to do that."

He wasn't "throwing you off" (that was YOUR words). He was merely telling
you that you must leave the plane (during the PENDING/further investigation)
and that you don't have to take your bag until they decided WHERE to seat
you (or, in the worst case scenario, eject you from that flight -- you would
THEN be asked to take your bag in the overhead compartment with you).


:I said, "Yes I do. My bags travel with me. If you're throwing me off this
:flight, I'll take them off, too."

At this point, the Captain was doing his best to accommodate you, and it was
to his credit that he didn't argue with you or acted as rudely as you did.


After he ascertained that it was the President's Club's agent that made the
mistake, your First Class seat was restored back to you, wasn't it?


Under NO CONCEIVABLE circumstance would what the Captain said to you to be
construed as "throwing you out of the plane" as having decided NOT to allow
you to be on that flight, and yet told you that you didn't have to take your
bag!

It would be against airline regulation. It would be against all commonsense.
That would be the surest way for any Captain to lose his job should he acted
that way: eject a passenger from a flight, and take off with the passenger's
carryon without the passenger.


It's surprising how even after the fact, when all had be rectified, that
you STILL didn't see what was actually going on.


It was clear to ME that the Captain was doing his best to make it as
pleasant for YOU and everyone else on the plane (given your LOUD and
obnoxious behavior), revealed in your OWN description (which you didn't
quite realized that you were rather unreasonable in making a mountain out
of a mole hill} -- such as making a big issue out of getting a 2E seat back
instead of a window seat, or window seat 1F -- you were ALSO accommodated
on that -- getting your 1F seat back!

JMHO.

-- Bob.

"Reef Fish" wrote in message
m...
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message
...
"Binyamin Dissen" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:53:09 -0700 "PTRAVEL"
wrote:

[ snipped ]
:Next thing I knew, the captain was standing next to me. He said, "I'm
the
:captain, and I'm telling you to leave the plane." I said, "Okay -- I
always
:follow the instructions of the crew. I'm leaving." I got up, and
started
:to get my bags out of the overhead. He said, "You don't have to do
that."
:I said, "Yes I do. My bags travel with me. If you're throwing me off
this
:flight, I'll take them off, too."

The captain was removing you from the flight and not only didn't
INSIST
that you remove your bags, was willing to let you leave them behind??

That doesn't make much sense, especially post 9/11.

Nothing about the incident made sense.


It made perfect sense to me! Let's go back to your original narrative.

You said above "I always follow the instructions of the crew ...".

No, you didn't. And you didn't even realize, in hindsight, that you
didn't!

PTR The FA takes both boarding passes, comes
PTR back in a few minutes and says, rather curtly, "You've cancelled your
PTR flight. You'll have to leave the plane." I toldl her that I hadn't
PTR cancelled my flight (remember, at this point I had no idea that the
desk
PTR agent had screwed up), and I wasn't leaving the plane unless the
Captain
PTR told me to. The FA left, and I pulled

The FA was a member of the crew, wasn't she?

Yes, she was. A rude and abusive one, and the flight was not under way, nor
the door closed. I follow all crew instructions, except hers. Okay?


At THAT point, all the FA and the Captain knew was that somebody cancelled
your flight. Even you didn't know who did it.

On the contrary, all I knew was that the flight _hadn't_ been cancelled. I
had checked in just an hour before, and was provided with a boarding pass by
Continental's system.


You were making a SCENE,

Nope. No scene -- I never raised my voice, I was never impolite, etc.

and probably obstructing the traffic of other
passengers,

Nope. Wrong again. I was in my seat. The passenger with the other
boarding pass for my seat had taken in the next row. No obstruction.

and you forced the issue of having the Captain to tell you to
leave the plane, while everyone (yourself included) had a chance to find
out what exactly happened.

You are making a lot of assumptions, most of which are wrong, about what
happened.

I did force the issue to this extent -- the FA tried to kick me off because
of an error CO made, that I knew nothing about. The captain _did_ kick me
off, for the same reason. It was handled by the FA and, to a lesser extent,
the captain, by a notable lack of courtesy -- she was rude, arrogant and
accusatory from the _beginning_ of the encounter.



At THAT point, all ensuing events pointed to the fact that the Captain had
ALREADY knew that a mistake had been made by SOMEONE, and had decided to
accommodate you even if it was YOU who made the mistake,

I was thrown off the airplane. How is that accomodating to me? I was told
that the airplane was full, but they'd try to find room for me in _coach_,
despite the fact that I had paid _full fare_ to sit in F, and that the whole
situation was solely the fault of CO, and not me. How is that accomodating?

so that you wouldn't
miss your flight, by giving you an available seat, whether it's in coach
or
First Class.

If you ever pay $2000+ for first class, and then are told to sit in a $200
coach seat, be sure and report back how you feel about it.

They also didn't care much about my missing the flight, as they had thrown
me off of it. If there hadn't been room, do you think they would have
thrown some other passenger off of it to make room for me? Remember --
their screw up, which they subsequently handled badly.


I think THAT was what explained:

:I got up, and started
:to get my bags out of the overhead. He said, "You don't have to do
that."

He wasn't "throwing you off" (that was YOUR words). He was merely telling
you that you must leave the plane (during the PENDING/further
investigation)

Other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

I had been comfortably settled into my seat. If they wanted to investigate,
it could have been done just as easily by letting me stay there. Instead,
the FA said, "You cancelled your ticket. You'll have to get off the plane."
The pilot said, "I'm the pilot, and I'm telling you to get off the plane."
No one said, "We're really sorry, but until we figure out what happened,
would you mind waiting on the jetway?"

Again, you're making plenty of assumptions, based on little or know
information.


and that you don't have to take your bag until they decided WHERE to seat
you (or, in the worst case scenario, eject you from that flight -- you
would
THEN be asked to take your bag in the overhead compartment with you).

At the time, I thought it odd that the pilot said I could leave my bags in
the overhead. However, after being accosted by the crew in this fashion, my
only concern was that I not be the victim of any more CO screwups. My
carryons, besides containing suits and the like which I needed, also had
medication which I take to stay alive, an expensive laptop computer, a
printer, etc. I was not about to be separated from all of that.




:I said, "Yes I do. My bags travel with me. If you're throwing me off
this
:flight, I'll take them off, too."

At this point, the Captain was doing his best to accommodate you, and it
was
to his credit that he didn't argue with you or acted as rudely as you did.

I didn't act rudely. (More assumptions, more errors on your part). I never
acted rudely at any time. And if this is the best that the Captain could do
to accomodate a passenger who (1) was flying on a $2,000+ ticket, and (2)
was platinum with CO, then he needs some diplomacy lessons. The FA was
rude, arrogant and accusatory -- with her very first exchange, she
humiliated me and insulted me. The temptation was to be rude and insulting
in return -- but I wasn't. I explained, politely, the situation. The
captain wasn't discourteous -- he simply gave me an order, with which I
immediately complied. It was phrased as a request, and it wasn't offered
with an explanation or apology.


After he ascertained that it was the President's Club's agent that made
the
mistake, your First Class seat was restored back to you, wasn't it?

No.

First, he didn't ascertain anything (nor did I expect him to) -- he simply
went back to his pre-flight check. A CO ground rep met me in the jetway,
and went through the same routine: "YOU cancelled your flight, etc." and
said they'd try to find me a seat in coach. By that time, I had found out
what had happened from my TA, told the rep, and told her I'd sue CO if I
missed my flight because of the Presidents Club rep's mistake. That's when
I was "allowed" to wait in the sweltering jetway while she went to verify my
story. Upon her return, instead of receiving a sincere apology, I was told,
"it was an honest mistake," and was told that they, "found room for me in
F," and was told to sit in 2E.

The point you seem to miss is that it is not just the fact of the mistake,
but the rudeness and arrogance with which the Atlanta FA, ground rep and
pilot handled the mistake, that I object to.




Under NO CONCEIVABLE circumstance would what the Captain said to you to be
construed as "throwing you out of the plane" as having decided NOT to
allow
you to be on that flight, and yet told you that you didn't have to take
your
bag!

Well, to me, "You'll have to get off the plane," means "you'll have to get
off the plane." It does not mean, "we're going to find another seat for
you," or, "we're going to find out what happened."


It would be against airline regulation. It would be against all
commonsense.

Again, you're making assumptions based on no information whatsoever. For
all I know, the Captain didn't want me pulling down my bags because it did,
briefly, hold up boarding (remember this was a very full flight). _I_
asssume (and since _I_ was there, my assumptions are, at least, based on
full information) is that, after boarding was complete, if they hadn't found
a coach seat to stuff me into, they would have pulled off my bags. As I
already explained, I had no intention of being separated from my bags
_at_any_point.


That would be the surest way for any Captain to lose his job should he
acted
that way: eject a passenger from a flight, and take off with the
passenger's
carryon without the passenger.

If, in fact, that's what he would have done. See above.



It's surprising how even after the fact, when all had be rectified, that
you STILL didn't see what was actually going on.

It's surprising to me how you've twisted the facts that I've reported to
support a lot of assumptions which, for the most part, are completely wrong.



It was clear to ME that the Captain was doing his best to make it as
pleasant for YOU and everyone else on the plane (given your LOUD and
obnoxious behavior),

That's an example of what I mean. I wasn't loud. I wasn't obnoxious.

You, however, have grown insulting and tedious. Conversation over.

revealed in your OWN description (which you didn't
quite realized that you were rather unreasonable in making a mountain out
of a mole hill} -- such as making a big issue out of getting a 2E seat
back
instead of a window seat, or window seat 1F -- you were ALSO accommodated
on that -- getting your 1F seat back!

JMHO.

-- Bob.

"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"Reef Fish" wrote in message
m...

PTR Nothing about the incident made sense.


RF It made perfect sense to me! Let's go back to your original narrative.


You said above "I always follow the instructions of the crew ...".

No, you didn't. And you didn't even realize, in hindsight, that you
didn't!

PTR The FA takes both boarding passes, comes back in a few
PTR minutes and says, rather curtly, "You've cancelled your
PTR flight. You'll have to leave the plane." I toldl her
PTR that I hadn't cancelled my flight (remember, at this point
PTR I had no idea that the desk agent had screwed up), and I
PTR wasn't leaving the plane unless the Captain told me to.
PTR The FA left, and I pulled

The FA was a member of the crew, wasn't she?

Yes, she was. A rude and abusive one, and the flight was not under way, nor
the door closed. I follow all crew instructions, except hers. Okay?

I was just pointing out that you contradicted yourself, in your own narrative!



At THAT point, all the FA and the Captain knew was that somebody
cancelled your flight. Even you didn't know who did it.

On the contrary, all I knew was that the flight _hadn't_ been cancelled.
I had checked in just an hour before, and was provided with a boarding
pass by Continental's system.

But you DIDN'T know at that point that your boarding pass to the flight
had INDEED been cancelled! Both the FA and the Captain had more CURRENT
information than you had, at the time.



and you forced the issue of having the Captain to tell you to
leave the plane, while everyone (yourself included) had a chance to
find out what exactly happened.

You are making a lot of assumptions, most of which are wrong, about what
happened.

What wrong assumption did I make?

1. It was only AFTER the Captain had told you to leave your seat (which
had been assigned to another passenger) that YOU called your travel
agent on the cell phone to learn that your boarding pass to the
seat 1F (which you THOUGHT you were entitled) had indeed been
cancelled.

2. The Captain and crew DID find out exactly what happened and restored
your seat to First Class, in 2E.



I did force the issue to this extent -- the FA tried to kick me off
because of an error CO made, that I knew nothing about.

She was just doing her job, given the info that the seat 1F previously
assigned to you (on your boarding pass) was cancelled. Just because YOU
knew nothing about it didn't give you the right to be obnoxious and
rude, as your own narrative of the incident revealed.



If you ever pay $2000+ for first class, and then are told to sit in a $200
coach seat, be sure and report back how you feel about it.

Non sequitur and irrelevant to the present discussion about YOUR incident.
I had already indicated I would have acted differently. If that happened
to ME, the issue would have been resolved without the kind of attitude
and behavior exhibited by you, during the incident AND after the fact,
even after the ONE mistake had been completely rectified.



Again, you're making plenty of assumptions, based on little or know
information.

I was basing my comments ENTIRELY on the information YOU (PTRAVEL)
provided, even without the opposing view by the FA and Captain which
I am quite sure would not be the same as yours! ;o)



After he ascertained that it was the President's Club's agent that made
the mistake, your First Class seat was restored back to you, wasn't it?

No.

What do you mean "No"? What was that you said NOW (below)?

was told that they, "found room for me in F," and was told to sit in 2E.


The remainder of your tedious follow-up was nothing more than a rehash of
the SAME FACTS that you had already given in your initial LENGTHY
narrative, save a few mis-recollection by YOU of what you had written!

It's counterproductive to continue beyond the re-establishment of facts
above.



Again, you're making assumptions based on no information whatsoever.

Now THAT's FUNNY!

I have already debunked your previous allegations of "making assumptions".
Everything I commented upon was based solely on what YOU (PTRAVEL)
described, and my opinion based thereupon.


You, however, have grown insulting and tedious. Conversation over.

Excellent. You and I both had our say -- I wouldn't have given my initial
comments, as softly as I did, had you not asked me directly for them.

Readers can decide for themselves who was "rude", "insulting", and
"tedious" based on what had already been said, and rehashed.


revealed in your OWN description (which you didn't quite realized
that you were rather unreasonable in making a mountain out a mole
hill} -- such as making a big issue out of getting a 2E seat back
instead of a window seat, or window seat 1F -- you were ALSO
accommodated on that -- getting your 1F seat back!

JMHO.

-- Bob.

JMHO once more.

-- Bob.

CO is still keeping P inventory available
right until time of departure. Gordon bethune is still waitng for the
last minute full fare pax to turn up.

This is true and is why Business First was such a great deal for employees
flying standby. If you found 20 open seats in Business First 12 hours prior to
flight time, there was a good chance that all of them would still be empty at
the time of departure and available for employeetravel.

I'm surely nobody special, but my wife and I got Business First seats to
Europe and Asia about 80% of the time.

This is one case where the airline"s greed came out as a bonus for employees.

Jerry in LAS

I have been moved to first class after being seated in coach, with my wife
and daughter twice. They said it was to balance the aircraft for takeoff.
DM

I have been moved to first class after being seated in coach, with my wife
and daughter twice. They said it was to balance the aircraft for takeoff.

Sometimes it's neat to be ballast.

Jerry in LAS