A380 - Flying in on a wing and a flair

AJC muttered....


Not quite. They don't have an extra 3cm per seat in which to cram an
individual armrest for each seat, they have an extra 3cm per seat in
which to cram 0.7 individual armrests.

The maths is:

30cm / 7 extra armrests = near enough 4.3cm per armrest.

You're right but.....

Would the world be happier using the extra 30 cm to widen each seat by
three cm or to provide individual armrests for "interior" seats? Helping
500 folk or a lesser number (in fact fewer of an even smaller number, as
non-window/non-aisle seats, the ones who are getting individual arm rests,
are also the seats no filled as pax load drops...)

TMO

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 12:31:39 -0600, Olivers
wrote:

AJC muttered....


Not quite. They don't have an extra 3cm per seat in which to cram an
individual armrest for each seat, they have an extra 3cm per seat in
which to cram 0.7 individual armrests.

The maths is:

30cm / 7 extra armrests = near enough 4.3cm per armrest.

You're right but.....

Would the world be happier using the extra 30 cm to widen each seat by
three cm or to provide individual armrests for "interior" seats? Helping
500 folk or a lesser number (in fact fewer of an even smaller number, as
non-window/non-aisle seats, the ones who are getting individual arm rests,
are also the seats no filled as pax load drops...)

TMO

Airbus didn't get where they are today without intensive consultation
with airlines and airline passengers. Clearly the feedback they
received led them to choose a cabin of this particular width, with the
intention of promoting it to be fitted out on this basis. The proposal
will increase elbow room for everyone, and in my opinion that is the
major consideration width-wise.
--==++AJC++==--

AJC wrote:
Airbus didn't get where they are today without intensive consultation
with airlines and airline passengers. Clearly the feedback they
received led them to choose a cabin of this particular width, with the
intention of promoting it to be fitted out on this basis.


Actually, it is also possible that the extra 30cm wasn't asked for, but they
had no choice in order to support an upper deck of sufficient width. And once
they realised that the main deck would be wider, they then turned this into a
marketing advantage.

I think that width was definitely an issue when they designed the 320 to give
it marketing advantage over the 737. But in the case of the 380, I am not
convinced 100% that the extra width was a marketing request to engineers as
opposed to engineers giving the marketing folks an unexpected gift.

By Raquib Siddiqi
Apr 3, 2004
"Time will fly with Gym, Casino on Airbus' new Super Jet"

Airbus Industrie wants to reinvent air travel with its future
super-jumbo jet, entertaining 21st-century passengers as they cruise
across the ocean. The A380 will seat 555 passengers and offer optional
amenities like a cocktail bar, library, casino, duty-free shops, gym,
spa and staterooms with beds.

Passengers can stroll amid three decks - try their hands at a game of
blackjack, buy some perfume or enjoy a shower or massage - whiling
away the long hours of a trans-Pacific or trans-Atlantic flight.

"It's a 15- to 20-minute trip to walk around, to exercise your legs
and keep your respiration going," said John Leahy, Airbus' executive
vice president of customer affairs, "rather than being trapped in a
seat for 16 to 17 hours."

Airbus projects worldwide passenger volume to double in the next 15
years, and the super-jumbo will help strained airports in absorbing
that growth, said Henri Courpron, president of Airbus Industrie of
North America. It's less costly to adapt an airport to larger aircraft
than for the airport to handle more flights on smaller aircraft, which
would require additional runways, he said.

The A380 will hold 220 seats on its upper deck and 335 seats on its
main deck, as normally configured by airlines with three classes of
service. The plane's certified capacity will be up to 1,000
passengers, if an airline chooses to put in the maximum number of
economy seats, which is unlikely.

The plane will require two sets of crew members for long-haul flights
- or four pilots and 40 flight attendants in all, said Denis Dempster,
product marketing manager for Airbus.

Inside, the A380 has 49 percent more floor space and 35 percent more
seating than the Boeing 747-400, giving passengers wider seats and
aisles, Leahy said.

Airbus likens the plane - which carries a list price of $235 million -
to a cruise ship. Airlines will have the choice of outfitting the
lower level with a casino, gym, spa or shop, generating additional
revenue while providing passenger amenities. Staterooms with bunk beds
can also be added.

Virgin Atlantic says it's too early to know which features it will
choose or what routes it will fly, but it says the A380 will fit well
into its fleet, providing about 40 percent greater capacity and 20
percent lower operating costs per passenger.

"It gives us the opportunity to innovate," said John Riordan, the
airline's vice president of sales and marketing. "It's a bigger
aircraft type, and we think it will hit the aircraft market with the
same buzz the jumbo jet hit the market in the '60s."

However, plenty of aviation experts wondered if the Europeans were
making a reckless gamble when, in late 2000, they announced plans to
launch this monster. After all, the tab will come to almost $13
billion before the first A380 enters service in 2006. What's more, to
many industry sages, the era of the jumbo jet is dead: Smaller,
nimbler planes will now rule the skies. "We feel very comfortable that
we did not pick a big aircraft to be in competition with Airbus," says
Boeing CEO Philip M. Condit. "There may not even be enough profitable
market there for any manufacturer."

But Airbus is confounding the skeptics. Construction of the A380 is on
schedule and within budget. Airlines in Asia, the Middle East, and
Europe are lining up to buy the plane, which they see as key to their
long-haul service between heavily congested airports. Airbus has
surpassed most analysts' estimates by chalking up 121 firm orders for
the A380, which lists for about $250 million. That's nearly half the
250 orders Airbus says it needs to break even.

Battered by the global economic downturn, along with the Iraq war and
the threats of terrorism and SARS, air carriers worldwide will take
delivery of only about 580 big jets this year, down from 850 in 2001.
But Airbus is wagering that the market will soon turn -- and that when
it does, airlines will turn to the A380 on heavily traveled long-haul
routes, especially those serving Asia.

But if Airbus is betting wrong, the A380 will become a crushing burden
-- not only on Airbus but also on shareholders of the European
Aeronautics Defense & Space Co. (EADS), which owns 80 per cent of the
aircraft maker.

The A380's outsize dimensions pose a host of other problems. Consider
just one: how to evacuate passengers from the upper deck in case of
emergency.

U.S. aerospace contractor Goodrich developed a new, higher-friction
material for the plane's evacuation slides so that passengers don't
pick up too much speed and get injured when they reach the bottom.

Airbus also created an immense challenge by deciding to assemble the
plane in Toulouse. Since its beginnings in the 1970s as a loose-knit
consortium of European companies, Airbus has always maintained a
careful geographic balance in its manufacturing. The wings of all
Airbus planes are manufactured in Britain, the tails in Spain, and
fuselages in France and Germany. Then the parts are loaded onto
bulbous freighter planes and brought to Toulouse for assembly. But the
A380's parts are too big to fit in any freighter plane. So Airbus has
developed a plan that requires building an ocean-going ferry and
specially designed river barges, as well as widening the
Bordeaux-Toulouse road and cutting down roadside trees so the
oversized cargo can get through.

The A380's backers also are breathing easier about airports' ability
to handle it. At most airports, the needed modifications are estimated
to cost $80 million to $100 million, mainly for outdoor improvements
such as reinforcing taxiway bridges and widening runway shoulders.
That isn't peanuts, but it's modest compared to the cost of, say,
putting in a new runway, which can run to $1 billion. The A380 can
operate on existing runways because, with its swept-back wings, it
takes up only slightly more space than a 747.

Still, plenty of questions remain about the A380. Out of those 121
orders, 45 are bound for a single carrier, Emirates Airline. "We can't
wait to get our hands on the A380," says Emirates President Tim Clark.
True, Emirates has posted 30 per cent to 40 per cent sales growth in
recent years as its owner, the oil-rich United Arab Emirates, has
poured billions into developing its hub in Dubai as a transit station
for globetrotting travelers. But if Emirates' growth falters, the A380
order book would take a huge hit.

Another concern is the hefty discounts Airbus has offered to launch
customers, by some accounts more than 30% off the roughly $250 million
list price. Airbus insists that such reports are exaggerated and that
the discounts are built into financial projections. But some analysts
think that because of heavy discounting, Airbus's supposed 250
breakeven figure is pure fantasy.

Moreover, Airbus still hasn't found a buyer in Japan, which the
company predicts will account for a major share of the superjumbo's
eventual market.

Sales chief Leahy predicts that after carriers such as Singapore
Airlines and Virgin Atlantic Airways begin flying into Tokyo, "the
Japanese are going to buy it." But for now, both Japan Air Lines Co.
and All Nippon Airways Co. remain all-Boeing carriers.

Asian Opportunity: the biggest question is whether Airbus has
correctly gauged long-term demand for the superjumbo. The European
planemaker predicts that over the next 20 years, airlines and freight
carriers will need a minimum of 1,500 more aircraft at least as big as
the 747. Boeing says that no more than 320 extra-large planes will be
sold over the next 20 years as the industry moves away from
hub-and-spoke networks toward more convenient direct flights between
smaller airports. This route fragmentation is the rationale behind
Boeing's 7E7, a fuel-efficient jet carrying about 220 passengers
intended to compete with Airbus' A330. Boeing predicts a market for
2,000 to 3,000 such intermediate-size planes over the next 20 years.

Who's right? Boeing's fragmentation scenario certainly looks
compelling when viewed from the U.S., where the number of
transatlantic departures by Boeing 747s declined slightly from 1990 to
2000, while transatlantic departures by smaller widebodies such as the
Boeing 777 and the Airbus A340 nearly tripled.

A chronic shortage of departure slots at many Asian and European
airports works in the A380's favor, too.

While Boeing has no plans to offer an updated version of the 747, some
industry watchers say it will be forced to reconsider when the A380
enters service. Sandy Morris, a London-based aviation analyst at ABN
Amro, predicts that airlines now flying 747s will scramble to buy
A380s once their rivals introduce the more efficient superjumbo.
"Boeing has made some serious mistakes in the past," he says, "but
this is the biggest one."

That may be overstating things a bit. But clearly, Airbus has momentum
on its side, and the task of building the world's biggest plane
clearly has energized its troops.

Airbus has received orders for 121 A380s, including passenger planes
for Singapore Airlines, Air France, Virgin Atlantic, Quantas, Emirates
and Qatar Airways. The first planes will be delivered in March 2006.

"nobody" wrote in message
...

Well, it is much simpler is you stay metric. 30cm divided between 10 seats
is
3cm per seat.
3cm is actuall a significant distance for seat width.

It's easier in metric, but as most of the readership here
seems to be either in the U.S. or U.K., I elected to common
in the units in which they would be most comfortable.

Having said that - how much of that 3 cm/1.18" per
seat do you actually think will wind up as added seat
width OR armrests (as opposed to going into the aisles,
etc.)?

Bob M.

"taqai" wrote in message
om...
By Raquib Siddiqi
Apr 3, 2004
"Time will fly with Gym, Casino on Airbus' new Super Jet"

Airbus Industrie wants to reinvent air travel with its future
super-jumbo jet, entertaining 21st-century passengers as they cruise
across the ocean. The A380 will seat 555 passengers and offer optional
amenities like a cocktail bar, library, casino, duty-free shops, gym,
spa and staterooms with beds.

And let's see a show of hands of all those who
believe that any of these gee-whiz features will last
even a second longer than the famed "piano lounges"
on the upper deck of the original 747s. Yes, they make
for WONDERFUL pictures in the marketing brochures
- but when it comes time for the airlines to choose their
configuration when placing the order, how many do you
think will check the box marked "gym" or "casino"
instead of "more seats"?


Bob M.

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 18:53:20 GMT, "Bob Myers"
wrote:


"taqai" wrote in message
. com...
By Raquib Siddiqi
Apr 3, 2004
"Time will fly with Gym, Casino on Airbus' new Super Jet"

Airbus Industrie wants to reinvent air travel with its future
super-jumbo jet, entertaining 21st-century passengers as they cruise
across the ocean. The A380 will seat 555 passengers and offer optional
amenities like a cocktail bar, library, casino, duty-free shops, gym,
spa and staterooms with beds.

And let's see a show of hands of all those who
believe that any of these gee-whiz features will last
even a second longer than the famed "piano lounges"
on the upper deck of the original 747s. Yes, they make
for WONDERFUL pictures in the marketing brochures
- but when it comes time for the airlines to choose their
configuration when placing the order, how many do you
think will check the box marked "gym" or "casino"
instead of "more seats"?


Bob M.


I agree. The A380 will come away with the slightly wider seats with
individual armrests and I guess a feeling of spaciousness due to the
size of the thing, but for the rest forget it, at least in Y class. EK
will have their F class cabins as introduced on the 345s, and VS will
have their bar in C class.
--==++AJC++==--

Bob Myers wrote:

"taqai" wrote in message
om...
And let's see a show of hands of all those who
believe that any of these gee-whiz features will last
even a second longer than the famed "piano lounges"
on the upper deck of the original 747s.

They will last longer than on the 747. On the 747, they replaced the lounges
with very lucrative first class seats. The A380 already has way too much
first/business class capacity at 555 pax when you consider current economic
climate (where Concorde couldn't attract sufficient first class pax for
instance).

Secondly, while the "gym/casino/tennis court/swimming pool/IMAX theatre" ideas
are fine, I doubt any airline will actually implement them. You see, those
would go in the cargo deck of the aircraft. And you couldn't really add
passengers seats there unless you added windows and emergency exits.

There is also the issue of turbulence. Not sure that airlines/authorities
would find it "safe" to have passengers spend lots of time in areas that are
not "turbulence safe" such as a bar setting.

I think that the focus will be on providing good seats with better seat
pitch/width and some more limited "entertainment space" designed more to allow
people to stretch their legs or go and get a drink/snack than providing a
place where people could sit down for a long time.

nobody wrote:
Bob Myers wrote:

"taqai" wrote in message
.com...
And let's see a show of hands of all those who
believe that any of these gee-whiz features will last
even a second longer than the famed "piano lounges"
on the upper deck of the original 747s.


They will last longer than on the 747. On the 747, they replaced the lounges
with very lucrative first class seats. The A380 already has way too much
first/business class capacity at 555 pax when you consider current economic
climate (where Concorde couldn't attract sufficient first class pax for
instance).

I think it's fair to say that all of us plebes who can only afford coach
seats are praying you're right on this....


Secondly, while the "gym/casino/tennis court/swimming pool/IMAX theatre" ideas
are fine, I doubt any airline will actually implement them. You see, those
would go in the cargo deck of the aircraft. And you couldn't really add
passengers seats there unless you added windows and emergency exits.

There is also the issue of turbulence. Not sure that airlines/authorities
would find it "safe" to have passengers spend lots of time in areas that are
not "turbulence safe" such as a bar setting.

I think that the focus will be on providing good seats with better seat
pitch/width and some more limited "entertainment space" designed more to allow
people to stretch their legs or go and get a drink/snack than providing a
place where people could sit down for a long time.

What I wish the A380 would do is offer a long-haul configuration for
flights over 10 hours. It'd be similar to sleeper cars on trains, with
small rooms accomodating six adults on bench seats that can fold down
into bunks. To me that'd be of much more value than piano bars and
I-Max theaters.

Any word on if they'll offer such a configuration?

Adam Weiss wrote:
Any word on if they'll offer such a configuration?

Yes, most do plan to have bunk beds. However, that is for first calss
passengers only. Normal people are stuck in seats.

On a 747, it might be conceivable to have bunk beds sicne there is much unused
space in the celiling. However the problem occurs when you have a daytime
flight and you are forced to have pax in a bed without windows.

On a train, the roomette or bedroom provide way too much space per passenger
to make it possible to fit 555 passengers in a 380. But yes, it would be
pretty cool.