France is getting hotter

On 18/12/03 10:58, in article ,
"Reid" wrote:

Following up to Earl Evleth

The last point is that politically there is no debate in Europe, especially
in France, that global warming is occurring. So the attitudes are different
and touring Americans might like to know that many issues do not
enter on the political agendas in Europe that do in the US.

Eh?
A "touring american" is likely to bump into a european
environmentalist who will want to discuss Kyoto with him.

But some visiting Americans might be able to read the local press and watch
TV, getting

Is it the US or Europe that has "green" parties?

Both, in fact, Nader called the American Presidential election.

Surely if anyone is ignoring global warming its the US?

That is what I wqs saying!

To repeat, I am saying that there is no political challenged to the global
warming "hypothesis" in Europe, this is an American political issue.

Earl

In article ,
Earl Evleth wrote:

On 18/12/03 10:24, in article
, "Go Fig"
wrote:

In article ,
Earl Evleth wrote:



Lets see, Kyoto was drafted in '99 and today its almost '04... but no,
there's no political debate.

Not much in Europe. Of course, France is mostly on nuclear power
and so can easily make the targets if it tries.

Well if it is so easy why wasn't ratified 4 years ago ? That is the
definition of political debate.



Good grief, who do you think is buying this statement of yours ?

Do you claim that there is a political challenge to global warming
in Europe, in France in particular???

No, Kyoto yes.


I am saying that the challenge is from vested interest political
forces in the US, not Europe.

The Europeans, with very high dependence on nuclear have done the
numbers, and have concluded Kyoto is in their economic advantage.

Where is the "Kyoto" for atomic waste, reckon there would be much debate
on this in Europe ? I think the U.S. would sign that bill in a flash,
we have spent the billions already for the storage. It would just be
some accommodations for transit.


Further, it is not that temperatures are getting warmer, it is why!

The hypothesis of the green house gases being the major cause is
accepted in Europe.

I say hypothesis since there are legitimate challenges to green house
cases being the only cause. But as time goes on the other causes
have diminished in importance scientifically, solar radiance variation
being the major problem.

It is the problem, more than likely.

The IPCC has been soundly criticized. From the choice of experts, to
their models that are nothing more than propaganda. Failure to
accurately include water vapor, clouds and even ocean currents. These
models failed to accurately reproduce the last 20 years of known data.

It was these models that were used as evidence in Kyoto.

jay
Thu, Dec 18, 2003



There is a lack of accurate historical data
of solar radiance. But these is a problem with knowing exactly how
much energy the earth has received.

Earl


--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Following up to Earl Evleth

That Europe could get colder is the preferred scenario for the man
who has a fur store in our neighborhood, Monsieur Lagache. I

not to mention the ski industry!
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking-food-photos, Wasdale, Thames, London etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
and same for Spain at "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Earl Evleth

Is it the US or Europe that has "green" parties?

Both, in fact, Nader called the American Presidential election.

So he did, he must be pleased with the result! I cant remember,
did he have a party behind him?

That is what I wqs saying!

To repeat, I am saying that there is no political challenged to the global
warming "hypothesis" in Europe, this is an American political issue.

I see! I think both Go Fig and I read your para as the opposite,
that global warming was not an issue in Europe, rather than it
was largely accepted to be a problem.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking-food-photos, Wasdale, Thames, London etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
and same for Spain at "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Go Fig

I am saying that the challenge is from vested interest political
forces in the US, not Europe.

The Europeans, with very high dependence on nuclear have done the
numbers, and have concluded Kyoto is in their economic advantage.

I thought Kyoto was a world agreement with Russia and US not
signed up.

Where is the "Kyoto" for atomic waste, reckon there would be much debate
on this in Europe ? I think the U.S. would sign that bill in a flash,
we have spent the billions already for the storage. It would just be
some accommodations for transit.

another issue.
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walking-food-photos, Wasdale, Thames, London etc "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
and same for Spain at "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:03:37 GMT, Charles Hawtrey wrote:

The problem is we don't really know. The present state of ocean
modeling is even worse than for atmospheric modeling, partly because
the important physical scales tend to be smaller and partly because
the important time scales tend to be much longer.

But the biggest problem is that we know almost bugger-all about the deep
waters.
--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

Reid staggered to the nearest keyboard and
wrote:

Following up to Earl Evleth

Curiously some predictions had been for a temperature drop in
northern Europe. That projection was made on the basis of
an expected change in the Gulf stream and the "conveyor belt"
distribution world wide.

I was listening to a programme the other day where they said the
failure of The Gulf Stream/N Atlantic drift, although possible,
was long odds.

The problem is we don't really know. The present state of ocean
modeling is even worse than for atmospheric modeling, partly because
the important physical scales tend to be smaller and partly because
the important time scales tend to be much longer. Add to this the
uncertainty in feedbacks arising from freshwater input from North
American rivers along with ice dynamics and we have quite a challenge.

The big problem is that if the thermohaline circulation breaks down,
historical data indicate that it could take hundreds to thousands of
years for it to reverse itself.


--
hambu n hambu hodo

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:10:31 GMT, Charles Hawtrey wrote:

Tim Challenger "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" staggered to
the nearest keyboard and wrote:

France has been heating more than the world average.



You didn't actually read the snippet that Earl posted, did you?

I did.

The snippet said nothing about the temperature of France, in
comparison to global temperatures. All I had to go on with regard to
France was Earl's opening statement "France has been heating more than
the world average."

Perhaps you should read more carefully yourself before taking others
to task. Just a suggestion.

It also didn't mention anything about last summer.

Has France really been heating more than the world average? You had a
hot summer in 2003 but that doesn't make a trend.
ditto


--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

Tim Challenger "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" staggered to
the nearest keyboard and wrote:

France has been heating more than the world average.

Has France really been heating more than the world average? You had a
hot summer in 2003 but that doesn't make a trend.

You didn't actually read the snippet that Earl posted, did you?

I did.

The snippet said nothing about the temperature of France, in
comparison to global temperatures. All I had to go on with regard to
France was Earl's opening statement "France has been heating more than
the world average."

Perhaps you should read more carefully yourself before taking others
to task. Just a suggestion.


--
hambu n hambu hodo

"Go Fig" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Earl Evleth wrote:



Where is the "Kyoto" for atomic waste, reckon there would be much debate
on this in Europe ? I think the U.S. would sign that bill in a flash,
we have spent the billions already for the storage. It would just be
some accommodations for transit.


You have to be kidding.

The US may have spent billions but currently has NO facility for long term
radioactive waste storage. The proposed facility at Yucca Mountain has
been stalemated for years with the issue going back to court on
Dec 15th and they are still only arguing about the technicalities of
the license application process !

Since the US has neither reprocessing or long term storage facilities
spent fuel is simply stored at the power plants in facilities that were
intended for short term storage only.

Both Britain and France have reprocessing facilities and
strategies for long term storage already in place with high
level waste being vitrified and intermediate level waste
being encapsulated for long term storage.

Keith