Transport Amsterdam to Copenhagen to Stockholm to Oslo

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On 31/07/10 15:55, James Silverton wrote:
Martin wrote on Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:27:26 +0200:

On 31/07/10 14:22, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 31/07/10 12:41, tim.... wrote:
"Cliff wrote in message
d.com...
I'm visiting those cities in that order in late
September/early October and I'd like advice on transport
options - that is. air, rail or sea or a mix of these. My
main concern is comfort and convenience rather than price,
but time is of concern as well.

All of those routes currently have usable overnight rail services:

AMS-CHP: depart 17:40 arrive 11:15. Day time journey is probably too
long
to consider useful. Overnight train can sometimes need to
be booked several weeks ahead.

CHP-STK: departure every 2 hours during the day taking 5:20,
sometimes direct, sometimes by taking the local train to
Malmo and changing (IME the onward connection will wait). Overnight
train (M-F,Su) departs Malmo 22:48 arrives 7:05. All trains require
reservation but usually not too far
in advance, the further in advance you book the cheaper the
fare (assuming you select the right options).

STK-OSL: More difficult as in past years the direct trains have
only operated in the summer and you are going in the
winter. It's probably too early to tell what this year's
timetable will be (if it does run, the times will be
similar to the Malmo-Stockholm times as for part of the
route they are the same trains - though obviously the
return direction). There's lots of low cost flights on the
route (which is why the train isn't frequent) but the
airports aren't convenient to the city centre and are
expensive and time consuming to get to. There are three
express buses a day taking 8 hours but I guess that doesn't
meet the "comfort" requirement.

If he has limited time it is better to fly.

An overnight train costs little real time.

Other than being dead the next day.How does the night sleeper price
compare to an air fare between A'dam and Copenahagen.I don't mean with
a normal 2nd class train ticket.
If you are obsessed with train travel OK. Otherwise travel by air for
long distances.

Not just "dead" but grubby and with wrinkled clothes if you can't check
into a hotel when you arrive.

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to Paris.
The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled the whole
way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train arrived in Paris
sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the connecting train which
got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.


I find the "rolling" helps me sleep. It's the noise if someone opens the
window (in non AC units) that I can't cope with.

I agree that early arrivals don't help, but the Amsterdam-Copenhagen train
arrives at a sensible time, The Malmo-Stockholm-Oslo sets, perhaps not so.

Booking two weeks from now a couchette AMS-CPH is 89 Euro or 179 Euro for a
single cabin. Best flight price that I can find is 50 Euro. After adding
on the transfers to the airport and a hotel I think that the train looks
good value.

tim

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:55:57 -0400, "James Silverton"
wrote:

Martin wrote on Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:27:26 +0200:

Other than being dead the next day.How does the night sleeper price
compare to an air fare between A'dam and Copenahagen.I don't mean with
a normal 2nd class train ticket.
If you are obsessed with train travel OK. Otherwise travel by air for
long distances.

Not just "dead" but grubby and with wrinkled clothes if you can't check
into a hotel when you arrive. There are sleeper trains with showers but
I can't speak about those routes. I have often wondered what advantage
there is supposed to be about those fully reclining first class seats to
Dubai, Japan and Europe.

In 1996 my wife, our eight year old daughter took trains
London-Brussels-Copenhagen-Stockholm. The Copenhagen station
has showers and we felt much better after using them. They were
pretty cheap.

After arriving in Copenhagen on the night train from Brussels (no
longer in existence, I believe) we showred and then went for a
walk through downtown Copenhagen then to the Little Mermaid an
then spent the evening in Tivoli unitl our night train to
Stockholm.

From Stockholm we took the overight ferry to Helsinki.

We did the train all the way for a lark on Eurailpasses (which, I
later calculated, would have been cheaper on buy-as-you-go
tickets). It was interesting, and we're glad we did it, but it
meant two nights on the train, Brussels-Copenhagen and
Copenhagen a night on the ferry, then on return a night on the
ferry Turku-Stockholm and a night copenhagen-Brussels again.

We don't want to do it again.

A few years ago we took an ICE Munich-Berlin, but even that was a
pretty long ride and we could have done it by air faster and
cheaper. Except, of course, we were kind of winging it on that
trip around Germany and we couldn't have got cheap tickets on
airlines at that short notice, and I had a Bahncard50 which
applied, at the time, to all three of us and which made train
travel pretty thrifty.

Unfortunately, the only high speed train on the OP's route would
be a Swedish X200, which isn't all that fast but is very nice.
The OP could skip the night train here.

In general, though, a long trip like this should be done because
you want to travel by train. Sleepers aren't that cheap and
unless you want to pay first class you will be sharing a
compartment with strangers, or buying the whole compartment, or
buying night tickets for everyone in your party.

Another caveat: people differ in their ability to sleep on a
night train. My wife sleeps like a log while I seem to be awake
for every jostle and bump.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:29:18 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to Paris.
The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled the whole
way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train arrived in Paris
sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the connecting train which
got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.


I find the "rolling" helps me sleep. It's the noise if someone opens the
window (in non AC units) that I can't cope with.

I agree that early arrivals don't help, but the Amsterdam-Copenhagen train
arrives at a sensible time, The Malmo-Stockholm-Oslo sets, perhaps not so.

It's been my experience that where a sleeper route will get you
to your destination too early, the train will park on a siding
for a couple of hours en route.

Booking two weeks from now a couchette AMS-CPH is 89 Euro or 179 Euro for a
single cabin. Best flight price that I can find is 50 Euro. After adding
on the transfers to the airport and a hotel I think that the train looks
good value.

My CityNightLine map of several years vintage doesn't show a
direct sleeper route Amsterdam-Copenhagen. The DB schedule
engine shows CNL40447 goes via Cologne.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On 31/07/10 18:29, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 31/07/10 15:55, James Silverton wrote:
Martin wrote on Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:27:26 +0200:

On 31/07/10 14:22, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 31/07/10 12:41, tim.... wrote:
"Cliff wrote in message
d.com...
I'm visiting those cities in that order in late
September/early October and I'd like advice on transport
options - that is. air, rail or sea or a mix of these. My
main concern is comfort and convenience rather than price,
but time is of concern as well.

All of those routes currently have usable overnight rail services:

AMS-CHP: depart 17:40 arrive 11:15. Day time journey is probably too
long
to consider useful. Overnight train can sometimes need to
be booked several weeks ahead.

CHP-STK: departure every 2 hours during the day taking 5:20,
sometimes direct, sometimes by taking the local train to
Malmo and changing (IME the onward connection will wait). Overnight
train (M-F,Su) departs Malmo 22:48 arrives 7:05. All trains require
reservation but usually not too far
in advance, the further in advance you book the cheaper the
fare (assuming you select the right options).

STK-OSL: More difficult as in past years the direct trains have
only operated in the summer and you are going in the
winter. It's probably too early to tell what this year's
timetable will be (if it does run, the times will be
similar to the Malmo-Stockholm times as for part of the
route they are the same trains - though obviously the
return direction). There's lots of low cost flights on the
route (which is why the train isn't frequent) but the
airports aren't convenient to the city centre and are
expensive and time consuming to get to. There are three
express buses a day taking 8 hours but I guess that doesn't
meet the "comfort" requirement.

If he has limited time it is better to fly.

An overnight train costs little real time.

Other than being dead the next day.How does the night sleeper price
compare to an air fare between A'dam and Copenahagen.I don't mean with
a normal 2nd class train ticket.
If you are obsessed with train travel OK. Otherwise travel by air for
long distances.

Not just "dead" but grubby and with wrinkled clothes if you can't check
into a hotel when you arrive.

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to Paris.
The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled the whole
way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train arrived in Paris
sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the connecting train which
got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.


I find the "rolling" helps me sleep. It's the noise if someone opens the
window (in non AC units) that I can't cope with.

I agree that early arrivals don't help, but the Amsterdam-Copenhagen train
arrives at a sensible time, The Malmo-Stockholm-Oslo sets, perhaps not so.

Booking two weeks from now a couchette AMS-CPH is 89 Euro or 179 Euro for a
single cabin. Best flight price that I can find is 50 Euro. After adding
on the transfers to the airport and a hotel I think that the train looks
good value.

but you love train travel )

I think EUR50 is worth every penny.

On 31/07/10 18:50, Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:29:18 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to Paris.
The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled the whole
way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train arrived in Paris
sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the connecting train which
got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.


I find the "rolling" helps me sleep. It's the noise if someone opens the
window (in non AC units) that I can't cope with.

I agree that early arrivals don't help, but the Amsterdam-Copenhagen train
arrives at a sensible time, The Malmo-Stockholm-Oslo sets, perhaps not so.

It's been my experience that where a sleeper route will get you
to your destination too early, the train will park on a siding
for a couple of hours en route.

Unfortunately that wasn't my experience.

Booking two weeks from now a couchette AMS-CPH is 89 Euro or 179 Euro for a
single cabin. Best flight price that I can find is 50 Euro. After adding
on the transfers to the airport and a hotel I think that the train looks
good value.

My CityNightLine map of several years vintage doesn't show a
direct sleeper route Amsterdam-Copenhagen. The DB schedule
engine shows CNL40447 goes via Cologne.

http://onlineboeken.nshispeed.nl/microtips/display

board at 17:41 arrive 10:06 the following day 16 hours on a bloody
train! Direct.
Ticket price EUR145 in a 4 person couchette

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:16:34 +0200, Martin
wrote:

On 31/07/10 18:50, Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:29:18 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to Paris.
The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled the whole
way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train arrived in Paris
sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the connecting train which
got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.


I find the "rolling" helps me sleep. It's the noise if someone opens the
window (in non AC units) that I can't cope with.

I agree that early arrivals don't help, but the Amsterdam-Copenhagen train
arrives at a sensible time, The Malmo-Stockholm-Oslo sets, perhaps not so.

It's been my experience that where a sleeper route will get you
to your destination too early, the train will park on a siding
for a couple of hours en route.

Unfortunately that wasn't my experience.

Booking two weeks from now a couchette AMS-CPH is 89 Euro or 179 Euro for a
single cabin. Best flight price that I can find is 50 Euro. After adding
on the transfers to the airport and a hotel I think that the train looks
good value.

My CityNightLine map of several years vintage doesn't show a
direct sleeper route Amsterdam-Copenhagen. The DB schedule
engine shows CNL40447 goes via Cologne.

http://onlineboeken.nshispeed.nl/microtips/display

board at 17:41 arrive 10:06 the following day 16 hours on a bloody
train! Direct.

Direct in teh sense that you don't have to change trains. But
certainly not geogrphically direct.

Ticket price EUR145 in a 4 person couchette

Shared with strangers?

Unless you mean booking the entire couchette, the CNL brochure
seems to indicate EUR69 per person, 4 person couchette.


--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On 31/07/10 19:45, Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:16:34 +0200, Martin
wrote:

On 31/07/10 18:50, Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:29:18 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to Paris.
The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled the whole
way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train arrived in Paris
sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the connecting train which
got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.


I find the "rolling" helps me sleep. It's the noise if someone opens the
window (in non AC units) that I can't cope with.

I agree that early arrivals don't help, but the Amsterdam-Copenhagen train
arrives at a sensible time, The Malmo-Stockholm-Oslo sets, perhaps not so.

It's been my experience that where a sleeper route will get you
to your destination too early, the train will park on a siding
for a couple of hours en route.

Unfortunately that wasn't my experience.

Booking two weeks from now a couchette AMS-CPH is 89 Euro or 179 Euro for a
single cabin. Best flight price that I can find is 50 Euro. After adding
on the transfers to the airport and a hotel I think that the train looks
good value.

My CityNightLine map of several years vintage doesn't show a
direct sleeper route Amsterdam-Copenhagen. The DB schedule
engine shows CNL40447 goes via Cologne.

http://onlineboeken.nshispeed.nl/microtips/display

board at 17:41 arrive 10:06 the following day 16 hours on a bloody
train! Direct.

Direct in teh sense that you don't have to change trains. But
certainly not geogrphically direct.

In the same sense that you used "direct route" )

Ticket price EUR145 in a 4 person couchette

Shared with strangers?

They could be three blonde Scandinavian bimbos.


Unless you mean booking the entire couchette, the CNL brochure
seems to indicate EUR69 per person, 4 person couchette.

On 07/31/2010 04:59 PM, Martin wrote:
On 31/07/10 15:55, James Silverton wrote:
Martin wrote on Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:27:26 +0200:

On 31/07/10 14:22, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 31/07/10 12:41, tim.... wrote:
"Cliff wrote in message
d.com...
I'm visiting those cities in that order in late
September/early October and I'd like advice on transport
options - that is. air, rail or sea or a mix of these. My
main concern is comfort and convenience rather than price,
but time is of concern as well.

All of those routes currently have usable overnight rail services:

AMS-CHP: depart 17:40 arrive 11:15. Day time journey is probably too
long
to consider useful. Overnight train can sometimes need to
be booked several weeks ahead.

CHP-STK: departure every 2 hours during the day taking 5:20,
sometimes direct, sometimes by taking the local train to
Malmo and changing (IME the onward connection will wait). Overnight
train (M-F,Su) departs Malmo 22:48 arrives 7:05. All trains require
reservation but usually not too far
in advance, the further in advance you book the cheaper the
fare (assuming you select the right options).

STK-OSL: More difficult as in past years the direct trains have
only operated in the summer and you are going in the
winter. It's probably too early to tell what this year's
timetable will be (if it does run, the times will be
similar to the Malmo-Stockholm times as for part of the
route they are the same trains - though obviously the
return direction). There's lots of low cost flights on the
route (which is why the train isn't frequent) but the
airports aren't convenient to the city centre and are
expensive and time consuming to get to. There are three
express buses a day taking 8 hours but I guess that doesn't
meet the "comfort" requirement.

If he has limited time it is better to fly.

An overnight train costs little real time.

Other than being dead the next day.How does the night sleeper price
compare to an air fare between A'dam and Copenahagen.I don't mean with
a normal 2nd class train ticket.
If you are obsessed with train travel OK. Otherwise travel by air for
long distances.

Not just "dead" but grubby and with wrinkled clothes if you can't check
into a hotel when you arrive.

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to
Paris. The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled
the whole way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train
arrived in Paris sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the
connecting train which got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.
Never again!

I'm inclined to agree. I've used overnight trains three times and every
time I regretted it the next day walking round feeling totally dead and
scruffy.
Overnight car ferries are a different story, provided you book
yourself a first class cabin you can sleep perfectly and have a decent
shower in privacy.
T.

There are sleeper trains with showers but
I can't speak about those routes. I have often wondered what advantage
there is supposed to be about those fully reclining first class seats to
Dubai, Japan and Europe.


I had one on a business class intercontinental flight with Air France
flight I slept like a log and woke up with a hang over.

On 01/08/10 01:26, Tom P wrote:
On 07/31/2010 04:59 PM, Martin wrote:
On 31/07/10 15:55, James Silverton wrote:
Martin wrote on Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:27:26 +0200:

On 31/07/10 14:22, tim.... wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 31/07/10 12:41, tim.... wrote:
"Cliff wrote in message
d.com...
I'm visiting those cities in that order in late
September/early October and I'd like advice on transport
options - that is. air, rail or sea or a mix of these. My
main concern is comfort and convenience rather than price,
but time is of concern as well.

All of those routes currently have usable overnight rail services:

AMS-CHP: depart 17:40 arrive 11:15. Day time journey is probably too
long
to consider useful. Overnight train can sometimes need to
be booked several weeks ahead.

CHP-STK: departure every 2 hours during the day taking 5:20,
sometimes direct, sometimes by taking the local train to
Malmo and changing (IME the onward connection will wait). Overnight
train (M-F,Su) departs Malmo 22:48 arrives 7:05. All trains require
reservation but usually not too far
in advance, the further in advance you book the cheaper the
fare (assuming you select the right options).

STK-OSL: More difficult as in past years the direct trains have
only operated in the summer and you are going in the
winter. It's probably too early to tell what this year's
timetable will be (if it does run, the times will be
similar to the Malmo-Stockholm times as for part of the
route they are the same trains - though obviously the
return direction). There's lots of low cost flights on the
route (which is why the train isn't frequent) but the
airports aren't convenient to the city centre and are
expensive and time consuming to get to. There are three
express buses a day taking 8 hours but I guess that doesn't
meet the "comfort" requirement.

If he has limited time it is better to fly.

An overnight train costs little real time.

Other than being dead the next day.How does the night sleeper price
compare to an air fare between A'dam and Copenahagen.I don't mean with
a normal 2nd class train ticket.
If you are obsessed with train travel OK. Otherwise travel by air for
long distances.

Not just "dead" but grubby and with wrinkled clothes if you can't check
into a hotel when you arrive.

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to
Paris. The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled
the whole way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train
arrived in Paris sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the
connecting train which got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.
Never again!

I'm inclined to agree. I've used overnight trains three times and every
time I regretted it the next day walking round feeling totally dead and
scruffy.

It took me a day to recover from the trip from Toulouse to the Netherlands.

A colleague travelling from Paris to Toulouse by night sleeper woke up
on the side of the track after a terrorist bomb exploded in the next
compartment.

Overnight car ferries are a different story, provided you book yourself
a first class cabin you can sleep perfectly and have a decent shower in
privacy.

We take an normal cabin on P&O North Sea Ferries and sleep well. We also
take our own pillows. I never slept well on the Harwich Hoek night
ferries. There was too much noise at night from drunk passengers.

The wife's coming too. And she doesn't do foursomes. Well not with blonde
Scandinavian bimbos anyway. I fear the alternative.

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On 31/07/10 19:45, Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:16:34 +0200, Martin
wrote:

On 31/07/10 18:50, Hatunen wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 17:29:18 +0100, "tim...."
wrote:

I tried it once with a first class sleeper ticket from Toulouse to
Paris.
The train started shortly before midnight, the carriage rolled the
whole
way, I had difficulty sleeping and worse still the train arrived in
Paris
sometime around 5:30 am. I crossed Paris caught the connecting train
which
got me to The Hague around 1pm. I felt dreadful.


I find the "rolling" helps me sleep. It's the noise if someone opens
the
window (in non AC units) that I can't cope with.

I agree that early arrivals don't help, but the Amsterdam-Copenhagen
train
arrives at a sensible time, The Malmo-Stockholm-Oslo sets, perhaps not
so.

It's been my experience that where a sleeper route will get you
to your destination too early, the train will park on a siding
for a couple of hours en route.

Unfortunately that wasn't my experience.

Booking two weeks from now a couchette AMS-CPH is 89 Euro or 179 Euro
for a
single cabin. Best flight price that I can find is 50 Euro. After
adding
on the transfers to the airport and a hotel I think that the train
looks
good value.

My CityNightLine map of several years vintage doesn't show a
direct sleeper route Amsterdam-Copenhagen. The DB schedule
engine shows CNL40447 goes via Cologne.

http://onlineboeken.nshispeed.nl/microtips/display

board at 17:41 arrive 10:06 the following day 16 hours on a bloody
train! Direct.

Direct in teh sense that you don't have to change trains. But
certainly not geogrphically direct.

In the same sense that you used "direct route" )

Ticket price EUR145 in a 4 person couchette

Shared with strangers?

They could be three blonde Scandinavian bimbos.


Unless you mean booking the entire couchette, the CNL brochure
seems to indicate EUR69 per person, 4 person couchette.