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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
"Marie Lewis" wrote in message ... Please note that fingerprinting is not nearly as common in, for example, the UK, as in the USA. Here, you have to be suspected of a crime to be foingerprinted, and if you are innocent, those prints are destroyed. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall for the UK Already the police can take and retain DNA samples if they arrest you; these samples are retained even if you're not subsequently charged with a crime. Fingerprinting will probably come in with ID cards. I'd be very surprised if the cards are not made compulsory as the police are bleating for this. Brgds, -- Peter X-Files Fan Please Note: Emailed replies cc'd / bcc'd , containing HTML or attachments auto-binned as spam |
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 18:43:34 +0200, Magda
wrote: On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 16:29:44 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, AJC arranged some electrons, so they looked like this : ... Having finger-prints taken for a driving licence? Maybe in Cuba, the ... former DDR, or some other 'big brother' regime, but certainly not in ... any free country. Finger-printing is for criminals. I have had my 10 fingerprints taken when I got my first identity card at 18. That card had a big print (including sides) of my right thumb right under my picture. I didn't feel I was being treated as a criminal at all. I wasn't intending to get in trouble anyway, so I was glad that if an identity mistake happened, the police already had my fingerprints and could prove my innocence. One shouldn't have to prove one's innocence, that should be the accepted position until proved otherwise. --==++AJC++==-- |
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
In rec.travel.usa-canada AJC wrote:
Having finger-prints taken for a driving licence? Maybe in Cuba, the former DDR, or some other 'big brother' regime, but certainly not in any free country. Finger-printing is for criminals. So you must be familiar with the process. Seriously, driver's licenses are used as ID in the US. Try to think. Figure it out. Oh wait. Nex |
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
In article ,
AJC wrote: Having finger-prints taken for a driving licence? Maybe in Cuba, the former DDR, or some other 'big brother' regime, but certainly not in any free country. Finger-printing is for criminals. Check up on Brazil, then. They were complaining about fingerprinting people from Brazil coming into the US, but neglected to note that they already fingerprint and photograph *all* of their own citizens. -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
#16
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:30:05 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
wrote: In rec.travel.usa-canada AJC wrote: Having finger-prints taken for a driving licence? Maybe in Cuba, the former DDR, or some other 'big brother' regime, but certainly not in any free country. Finger-printing is for criminals. So you must be familiar with the process. Seriously, driver's licenses are used as ID in the US. And your point is what? Driving licences are used as a form of identification in many countries whose governments don't keep a database of innocent citizens' fingerprints. --==++AJC++==-- |
#17
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
"Magda" wrote in message ... ... Having finger-prints taken for a driving licence? Maybe in Cuba, the ... former DDR, or some other 'big brother' regime, but certainly not in ... any free country. Finger-printing is for criminals. I have had my 10 fingerprints taken when I got my first identity card at 18. That card had a big print (including sides) of my right thumb right under my picture. I didn't feel I was being treated as a criminal at all. I wasn't intending to get in trouble anyway, so I was glad that if an identity mistake happened, the police already had my fingerprints and could prove my innocence. Dear Magda, You're sure you don't mind if "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" ?? What if your employer or the AT&T's, Microsofts, Walmarts and Citigroups of this world start fingerprinting or DNA-scanning you... you're sure you're "innocent" enough to hand over your fingerprints to them ? I just wonder is this a typical European concern or is it just a matter of you being ignorant and naive ??? http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm Feel free to have look, it's free !!! : In the ramifications of party doctrine she had not the faintest interest. Whenever he began to talk of the principles of Ingsoc, doublethink, the mutability of the past, and the denial of objective reality, and to use Newspeak words, she became bored and confused and said that she never paid any attention to that kind of thing. One knew that it was all rubbish, so why let oneself be worried by it? She knew when to cheer and when to boo, and that was all one needed. If he persisted in talking of such subjects, she had a disconcerting habit of falling asleep. She was one of those people who can go to sleep at any hour and in any position. Talking to her, he realized how easy it was to present an appearance of orthodoxy while having no grasp whatever of what orthodoxy meant. In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it. They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them, and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening. By lack of understanding they remained sane. They simply swallowed everything, and what they swallowed did them no harm, because it left no residue behind, just as a grain of corn will pass undigested through the body of a bird. Part Two - Chapter 5 http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm 'We may be together for another six months -- a year -- there's no knowing. At the end we're certain to be apart. Do you realize how utterly alone we shall be? When once they get hold of us there will be nothing, literally nothing, that either of us can do for the other. If I confess, they'll shoot you, and if I refuse to confess, they'll shoot you just the same. Nothing that I can do or say, or stop myself from saying, will put off your death for as much as five minutes. Neither of us will even know whether the other is alive or dead. We shall be utterly without power of any kind. The one thing that matters is that we shouldn't betray one another, although even that can't make the slightest difference.' 'If you mean confessing,' she said, 'we shall do that, right enough. Everybody always confesses. You can't help it. They torture you.' 'I don't mean confessing. Confession is not betrayal. What you say or do doesn't matter: only feelings matter. If they could make me stop loving you -- that would be the real betrayal.' She thought it over. 'They can't do that,' she said finally. 'It's the one thing they can't do. They can make you say anything -- anything -- but they can't make you believe it. They can't get inside you.' 'No,' he said a little more hopefully, 'no; that's quite true. They can't get inside you. If you can feel that staying human is worth while, even when it can't have any result whatever, you've beaten them.' He thought of the telescreen with its never-sleeping ear. They could spy upon you night and day, but if you kept your head you could still outwit them. With all their cleverness they had never mastered the secret of finding out what another human being was thinking. Perhaps that was less true when you were actually in their hands. One did not know what happened inside the Ministry of Love, but it was possible to guess: tortures, drugs, delicate instruments that registered your nervous reactions, gradual wearing-down by sleeplessness and solitude and persistent questioning. Facts, at any rate, could not be kept hidden. They could be tracked down by enquiry, they could be squeezed out of you by torture. But if the object was not to stay alive but to stay human, what difference did it ultimately make? They could not alter your feelings: for that matter you could not alter them yourself, even if you wanted to. They could lay bare in the utmost detail everything that you had done or said or thought; but the inner heart, whose workings were mysterious even to yourself, remained impregnable. Part Two - Chapter 7 http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm The Ministry of Truth -- Minitrue, in Newspeak -- was startlingly different from any other object in sight. It was an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete, soaring up, terrace after terrace, 300 metres into the air. From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party: WAR IS PEACE - FREEDOM IS SLAVERY - IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Part One - Chapter 1 http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm Often they gave themselves up to daydreams of escape. Their luck would hold indefinitely, and they would carry on their intrigue, just like this, for the remainder of their natural lives. Or Katharine would die, and by subtle manoeuvrings Winston and Julia would succeed in getting married. Or they would commit suicide together. Or they would disappear, alter themselves out of recognition, learn to speak with proletarian accents, get jobs in a factory and live out their lives undetected in a back-street. It was all nonsense, as they both knew. In reality there was no escape. Even the one plan that was practicable, suicide, they had no intention of carrying out. To hang on from day to day and from week to week, spinning out a present that had no future, seemed an unconquerable instinct, just as one's lungs will always draw the next breath so long as there is air available. Sometimes, too, they talked of engaging in active rebellion against the Party, but with no notion of how to take the first step. Even if the fabulous Brotherhood was a reality, there still remained the difficulty of finding one's way into it. He told her of the strange intimacy that existed, or seemed to exist, between himself and O'Brien, and of the impulse he sometimes felt, simply to walk into O'Brien's presence, announce that he was the enemy of the Party, and demand his help. Curiously enough, this did not strike her as an impossibly rash thing to do. She was used to judging people by their faces, and it seemed natural to her that Winston should believe O'Brien to be trustworthy on the strength of a single flash of the eyes. Moreover she took it for granted that everyone, or nearly everyone, secretly hated the Party and would break the rules if he thought it safe to do so. But she refused to believe that widespread, organized opposition existed or could exist. The tales about Goldstein and his underground army, she said, were simply a lot of rubbish which the Party had invented for its own purposes and which you had to pretend to believe in. Times beyond number, at Party rallies and spontaneous demonstrations, she had shouted at the top of her voice for the execution of people whose names she had never heard and in whose supposed crimes she had not the faintest belief. When public trials were happening she had taken her place in the detachments from the Youth League who surrounded the courts from morning to night, chanting at intervals 'Death to the traitors!' During the Two Minutes Hate she always excelled all others in shouting insults at Goldstein. Yet she had only the dimmest idea of who Goldstein was and what doctrines he was supposed to represent. She had grown up since the Revolution and was too young to remember the ideological battles of the fifties and sixties. Such a thing as an independent political movement was outside her imagination: and in any case the Party was invincible. It would always exist, and it would always be the same. You could only rebel against it by secret disobedience or, at most, by isolated acts of violence such as killing somebody or blowing something up. Part Two - Chapter 5 http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm His eyes re-focused on the page. He discovered that while he sat helplessly musing he had also been writing, as though by automatic action. And it was no longer the same cramped, awkward handwriting as before. His pen had slid voluptuously over the smooth paper, printing in large neat capitals - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - over and over again, filling half a page. He could not help feeling a twinge of panic. It was absurd, since the writing of those particular words was not more dangerous than the initial act of opening the diary, but for a moment he was tempted to tear out the spoiled pages and abandon the enterprise altogether. He did not do so, however, because he knew that it was useless. Whether he wrote DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER, or whether he refrained from writing it, made no difference. Whether he went on with the diary, or whether he did not go on with it, made no difference. The Thought Police would get him just the same. He had committed -- would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper -- the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed for ever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you. It was always at night -- the arrests invariably happened at night. The sudden jerk out of sleep, the rough hand shaking your shoulder, the lights glaring in your eyes, the ring of hard faces round the bed. In the vast majority of cases there was no trial, no report of the arrest. People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: vaporized was the usual word. For a moment he was seized by a kind of hysteria. He began writing in a hurried untidy scrawl: -- theyll shoot me i dont care theyll shoot me in the back of the neck i dont care down with big brother they always shoot you in the back of the neck i dont care down with big brother -- He sat back in his chair, slightly ashamed of himself, and laid down the pen. The next moment he started violently. There was a knocking at the door. Already! He sat as still as a mouse, in the futile hope that whoever it was might go away after a single attempt. But no, the knocking was repeated. The worst thing of all would be to delay. His heart was thumping like a drum, but his face, from long habit, was probably expressionless. He got up and moved heavily towards the door. Part One - Chapter 1 http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm |
#18
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
"Magda" wrote in message
... Dear Magda, ... Having finger-prints taken for a driving licence? Maybe in Cuba, the ... former DDR, or some other 'big brother' regime, but certainly not in ... any free country. Finger-printing is for criminals. I have had my 10 fingerprints taken when I got my first identity card at 18. That card had a big print (including sides) of my right thumb right under my picture. I didn't feel I was being treated as a criminal at all. I wasn't intending to get in trouble anyway, so I was glad that if an identity mistake happened, the police already had my fingerprints and could prove my innocence. You're sure you don't mind if "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" ?? What if your employer or the AT&T's, Microsofts, Walmarts and Citigroups of this world were to start biometrically fingerprinting or genetically DNA-scanning you... you're sure you're "innocent" enough to hand over your fingerprints to them ? I just wonder if this fear of a Faustian/Orwellian doomsday is a typically European concern or is it just a matter of you being ignorant and naive ??? http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm Feel free to have look, it's free !!! From Part Two - Ch 5 : In the ramifications of party doctrine she had not the faintest interest. Whenever he began to talk of the principles of Ingsoc, doublethink, the mutability of the past, and the denial of objective reality, and to use Newspeak words, she became bored and confused and said that she never paid any attention to that kind of thing. One knew that it was all rubbish, so why let oneself be worried by it? She knew when to cheer and when to boo, and that was all one needed. If he persisted in talking of such subjects, she had a disconcerting habit of falling asleep. She was one of those people who can go to sleep at any hour and in any position. Talking to her, he realized how easy it was to present an appearance of orthodoxy while having no grasp whatever of what orthodoxy meant. In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it. They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them, and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening. By lack of understanding they remained sane. They simply swallowed everything, and what they swallowed did them no harm, because it left no residue behind, just as a grain of corn will pass undigested through the body of a bird. http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm From Part Two - Ch 7 : 'We may be together for another six months -- a year -- there's no knowing. At the end we're certain to be apart. Do you realize how utterly alone we shall be? When once they get hold of us there will be nothing, literally nothing, that either of us can do for the other. If I confess, they'll shoot you, and if I refuse to confess, they'll shoot you just the same. Nothing that I can do or say, or stop myself from saying, will put off your death for as much as five minutes. Neither of us will even know whether the other is alive or dead. We shall be utterly without power of any kind. The one thing that matters is that we shouldn't betray one another, although even that can't make the slightest difference.' 'If you mean confessing,' she said, 'we shall do that, right enough. Everybody always confesses. You can't help it. They torture you.' 'I don't mean confessing. Confession is not betrayal. What you say or do doesn't matter: only feelings matter. If they could make me stop loving you -- that would be the real betrayal.' She thought it over. 'They can't do that,' she said finally. 'It's the one thing they can't do. They can make you say anything -- anything -- but they can't make you believe it. They can't get inside you.' 'No,' he said a little more hopefully, 'no; that's quite true. They can't get inside you. If you can feel that staying human is worth while, even when it can't have any result whatever, you've beaten them.' He thought of the telescreen with its never-sleeping ear. They could spy upon you night and day, but if you kept your head you could still outwit them. With all their cleverness they had never mastered the secret of finding out what another human being was thinking. Perhaps that was less true when you were actually in their hands. One did not know what happened inside the Ministry of Love, but it was possible to guess: tortures, drugs, delicate instruments that registered your nervous reactions, gradual wearing-down by sleeplessness and solitude and persistent questioning. Facts, at any rate, could not be kept hidden. They could be tracked down by enquiry, they could be squeezed out of you by torture. But if the object was not to stay alive but to stay human, what difference did it ultimately make? They could not alter your feelings: for that matter you could not alter them yourself, even if you wanted to. They could lay bare in the utmost detail everything that you had done or said or thought; but the inner heart, whose workings were mysterious even to yourself, remained impregnable. http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm From Part One - Ch 1 : The Ministry of Truth -- Minitrue, in Newspeak -- was startlingly different from any other object in sight. It was an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete, soaring up, terrace after terrace, 300 metres into the air. From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party: WAR IS PEACE - FREEDOM IS SLAVERY - IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm From Part Two - Ch 5 Often they gave themselves up to daydreams of escape. Their luck would hold indefinitely, and they would carry on their intrigue, just like this, for the remainder of their natural lives. Or Katharine would die, and by subtle manoeuvrings Winston and Julia would succeed in getting married. Or they would commit suicide together. Or they would disappear, alter themselves out of recognition, learn to speak with proletarian accents, get jobs in a factory and live out their lives undetected in a back-street. It was all nonsense, as they both knew. In reality there was no escape. Even the one plan that was practicable, suicide, they had no intention of carrying out. To hang on from day to day and from week to week, spinning out a present that had no future, seemed an unconquerable instinct, just as one's lungs will always draw the next breath so long as there is air available. Sometimes, too, they talked of engaging in active rebellion against the Party, but with no notion of how to take the first step. Even if the fabulous Brotherhood was a reality, there still remained the difficulty of finding one's way into it. He told her of the strange intimacy that existed, or seemed to exist, between himself and O'Brien, and of the impulse he sometimes felt, simply to walk into O'Brien's presence, announce that he was the enemy of the Party, and demand his help. Curiously enough, this did not strike her as an impossibly rash thing to do. She was used to judging people by their faces, and it seemed natural to her that Winston should believe O'Brien to be trustworthy on the strength of a single flash of the eyes. Moreover she took it for granted that everyone, or nearly everyone, secretly hated the Party and would break the rules if he thought it safe to do so. But she refused to believe that widespread, organized opposition existed or could exist. The tales about Goldstein and his underground army, she said, were simply a lot of rubbish which the Party had invented for its own purposes and which you had to pretend to believe in. Times beyond number, at Party rallies and spontaneous demonstrations, she had shouted at the top of her voice for the execution of people whose names she had never heard and in whose supposed crimes she had not the faintest belief. When public trials were happening she had taken her place in the detachments from the Youth League who surrounded the courts from morning to night, chanting at intervals 'Death to the traitors!' During the Two Minutes Hate she always excelled all others in shouting insults at Goldstein. Yet she had only the dimmest idea of who Goldstein was and what doctrines he was supposed to represent. She had grown up since the Revolution and was too young to remember the ideological battles of the fifties and sixties. Such a thing as an independent political movement was outside her imagination: and in any case the Party was invincible. It would always exist, and it would always be the same. You could only rebel against it by secret disobedience or, at most, by isolated acts of violence such as killing somebody or blowing something up. http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm From Part One - Ch 1 : His eyes re-focused on the page. He discovered that while he sat helplessly musing he had also been writing, as though by automatic action. And it was no longer the same cramped, awkward handwriting as before. His pen had slid voluptuously over the smooth paper, printing in large neat capitals - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER - over and over again, filling half a page. He could not help feeling a twinge of panic. It was absurd, since the writing of those particular words was not more dangerous than the initial act of opening the diary, but for a moment he was tempted to tear out the spoiled pages and abandon the enterprise altogether. He did not do so, however, because he knew that it was useless. Whether he wrote DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER, or whether he refrained from writing it, made no difference. Whether he went on with the diary, or whether he did not go on with it, made no difference. The Thought Police would get him just the same. He had committed -- would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper -- the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed for ever. You might dodge successfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you. It was always at night -- the arrests invariably happened at night. The sudden jerk out of sleep, the rough hand shaking your shoulder, the lights glaring in your eyes, the ring of hard faces round the bed. In the vast majority of cases there was no trial, no report of the arrest. People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: vaporized was the usual word. For a moment he was seized by a kind of hysteria. He began writing in a hurried untidy scrawl: -- theyll shoot me i dont care theyll shoot me in the back of the neck i dont care down with big brother they always shoot you in the back of the neck i dont care down with big brother -- He sat back in his chair, slightly ashamed of himself, and laid down the pen. The next moment he started violently. There was a knocking at the door. Already! He sat as still as a mouse, in the futile hope that whoever it was might go away after a single attempt. But no, the knocking was repeated. The worst thing of all would be to delay. His heart was thumping like a drum, but his face, from long habit, was probably expressionless. He got up and moved heavily towards the door. http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/1984/1984.htm ----- Air America: The greatest CIA-operation ever !!! |
#19
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
"Go Fig" wrote in message ... What about after some incident, you must agree that fingerprints can be valuable at this point. Clearly they were used in Madrid, as they used discovered prints at that house to ID conspirators. Ex post : yes, maybe - but only when justified, and within a decent judicial framework Ex ante: NEVER !!! Not where I wanna live anyway... ----- Air America: The greatest CIA-operation ever !!! |
#20
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Air America breaking news: "USA to fingerprint ALL visitors !!!"
Brian wrote:
So how can we identify a person other than fingerprints? Passports, DLs, and every other form of ID have been no problem to duplicate for terrorists. And just how will the usa verify your fingerprints ? If you're a foreigner who has never been to the USA, your fingerprints will be "virgin". So terrorists will now know that they can only travel once to the USA since on a second attempt, they might be spotted. Where this would make a difference is if someone with same fingerprints enters with different identity. They might be able to spot them. What remains to be seen is whether computers really have the ability to match fingerprints in real-time over such a high volume database since it won't be just criminals anymore, it will be all visitors. Where will it stop ? Will the USA then ask for a blood sample so that they can register your complete DNA ? |
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