Chirac refuses to give up his necktie!

On 17 Jun 2004 10:44:12 -0700, (Earl) wrote:

Go Fig wrote in message ...
In article , Earl
wrote:

Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia, in
addition to storing other illegal military items for Germany.

Cite a reference to that, I have never encountered that claim.

There was no German-Russian military cooperation prior to WWII (September 1939)
by which time the German airforce was off and running, having
shown their stuff already in Spain. In Poland they showed there
stuff more.

You state "Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia"

What do you mean by that? In the past you have not been able to
back up what you say, so if you have the info, supply it.

Much as it grieves me to back uncritical right-wing bigots, the man
has his history correct.

The Treaty of Rapallo (1922) between the Soviet Union and vanquished
countries of World War I did allow Germany to export goods to the USSR
and conduct military experiments on Soviet soil which were forbidden
under the treaty of Verailles. Out-of-work German military also
trained elements of the Red Army.

(See "Stalin" by Isaac Deutscher [London: Pelican Books 1979] pp387
and 403)

I also read a history of the German military in the inter-war period
which says the same.

In article , Earl
wrote:

Go Fig wrote in message
...
In article , Earl
wrote:

Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia, in
addition to storing other illegal military items for Germany.

Cite a reference to that, I have never encountered that claim.

There was no German-Russian military cooperation prior to WWII (September
1939)
by which time the German airforce was off and running, having
shown their stuff already in Spain. In Poland they showed there
stuff more.

You state "Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia"

What do you mean by that?

Exactly what I said!

There is a big world of info outside Le Monde waiting for you.

jay
Thu Jun 17, 2004



In the past you have not been able to
back up what you say, so if you have the info, supply it.


Earl

In article , Keith Anderson
wrote:

On 17 Jun 2004 10:44:12 -0700, (Earl) wrote:

Go Fig wrote in message
...
In article , Earl
wrote:

Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia, in
addition to storing other illegal military items for Germany.

Cite a reference to that, I have never encountered that claim.

There was no German-Russian military cooperation prior to WWII (September
1939)
by which time the German airforce was off and running, having
shown their stuff already in Spain. In Poland they showed there
stuff more.

You state "Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia"

What do you mean by that? In the past you have not been able to
back up what you say, so if you have the info, supply it.

Much as it grieves me to back uncritical right-wing bigots, the man
has his history correct.

Ahhhhhh, the voice of the 'tolerant' left.

The USENET archive is before you... put up or shut up !

jay
Thu Jun 17, 2004





The Treaty of Rapallo (1922) between the Soviet Union and vanquished
countries of World War I did allow Germany to export goods to the USSR
and conduct military experiments on Soviet soil which were forbidden
under the treaty of Verailles. Out-of-work German military also
trained elements of the Red Army.

(See "Stalin" by Isaac Deutscher [London: Pelican Books 1979] pp387
and 403)

I also read a history of the German military in the inter-war period
which says the same.

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:50:30 -0700, Go Fig wrote:

In article , Earl
wrote:

Go Fig wrote in message
...
In article , Earl
wrote:

Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia, in
addition to storing other illegal military items for Germany.

Cite a reference to that, I have never encountered that claim.

There was no German-Russian military cooperation prior to WWII (September
1939)
by which time the German airforce was off and running, having
shown their stuff already in Spain. In Poland they showed there
stuff more.

You state "Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia"

What do you mean by that?

Exactly what I said!

There is a big world of info outside Le Monde waiting for you.

As if Le Monde would have ever tried to deny that the Luftwaffe used
Russia as a training ground before Germany openly renounced its Versailles
obligations.

Come on. Can't you take being right for once with a bit of grace?

In article , devil
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:50:30 -0700, Go Fig wrote:

In article , Earl
wrote:

Go Fig wrote in message
...
In article , Earl
wrote:

Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia, in
addition to storing other illegal military items for Germany.

Cite a reference to that, I have never encountered that claim.

There was no German-Russian military cooperation prior to WWII (September
1939)
by which time the German airforce was off and running, having
shown their stuff already in Spain. In Poland they showed there
stuff more.

You state "Germany did most all of its illegal aircraft training in Russia"

What do you mean by that?

Exactly what I said!

There is a big world of info outside Le Monde waiting for you.

As if Le Monde would have ever tried to deny that the Luftwaffe used
Russia as a training ground before Germany openly renounced its Versailles
obligations.

That was not my suggestion, there are only so many hours in a day...
those spent reading Le Monde, NYT and Los Angeles Times (the list is
too long) is dubious at best.

jay
Thu Jun 17, 2004




Come on. Can't you take being right for once with a bit of grace?

Keith Anderson wrote in message . ..


I also read a history of the German military in the inter-war period
which says the same.

The period in which the war training and preparation really took place was
was after Hitler took power, in the 1933-39 period and especially at
the end from '36 on. At that point in time the issue of the battle
between Communism and Fascism was clear. Next, any training
in the 1920s was essentially useless, based on WWI tactics which
were not adopted to the use of modern air power and tank warfare.
The two major advances there were in the development of the all-metal
air plane and the replacement of rivets by cast turrets in the tanks.

The best and overall main training the Germans got in that period
was in the Russo-Finish war and the Spanish Civil war were they faced
some Russians military.

As far as I can see, the influence of the 1920s in military training
anywhere in the world was overall negative because of its attachment
to what happened in WWI. This also extended into the 1930s since
France, for instance, depended on fixed fortifications for defense
in a period where increasing mobility was to play a role. The irony
here was that Germany too, in having insufficient fuel supplies
and manufacturering capacity could not develop a comprehensive
system of miltary supply transport by truck. In the end only the USA
provided adequate trucks to do this. The Germans were reduced to
pony and cart transportation in Russia outside the use of the few
rail systems.

Earl

On 17 Jun 2004 23:55:16 -0700, (Earl) wrote:

Keith Anderson wrote in message . ..


I also read a history of the German military in the inter-war period
which says the same.

The period in which the war training and preparation really took place was
was after Hitler took power, in the 1933-39 period and especially at
the end from '36 on. At that point in time the issue of the battle
between Communism and Fascism was clear. Next, any training
in the 1920s was essentially useless, based on WWI tactics which
were not adopted to the use of modern air power and tank warfare.
The two major advances there were in the development of the all-metal
air plane and the replacement of rivets by cast turrets in the tanks.

Sorry, but Hans von Seeckt

http://www.britannica.com/ebc/articl...circumvent&ct=

is often given credit for being the inventor of the "Blitzkrieg" - see
also:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...rev/corum.html


The best and overall main training the Germans got in that period
was in the Russo-Finish war and the Spanish Civil war were they faced
some Russians military.

As far as I can see, the influence of the 1920s in military training
anywhere in the world was overall negative because of its attachment
to what happened in WWI.

Again, see above

This also extended into the 1930s since
France, for instance, depended on fixed fortifications for defense
in a period where increasing mobility was to play a role.

Although de Gaulle argued vehemently against this mentality.

The irony
here was that Germany too, in having insufficient fuel supplies
and manufacturering capacity could not develop a comprehensive
system of miltary supply transport by truck. In the end only the USA
provided adequate trucks to do this. The Germans were reduced to
pony and cart transportation in Russia outside the use of the few
rail systems.

Also (according to some of the D-Day veterans recently interviewed for
the 60th anniversary) on the Western front.

Earl

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:28:49 +0100, Keith Anderson wrote:


Sorry, but Hans von Seeckt

http://www.britannica.com/ebc/articl...circumvent&ct=

is often given credit for being the inventor of the "Blitzkrieg" - see
also:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...rev/corum.html

More like a contributor, it seems to me.

On the German side, the name that comes up (admittedly later) is Guderian.
Who apparently drew a good deal of inspiration from de Gaulle's book.

On 18/06/04 13:28, in article ,
"Keith Anderson" wrote:

On 17 Jun 2004 23:55:16 -0700, (Earl) wrote:


Sorry, but Hans von Seeckt

http://www.britannica.com/ebc/articl...circumvent&ct=

is often given credit for being the inventor of the "Blitzkrieg"

Success has a million parents, failure is an orphan! But I have
read of a number of parents in this regard, and also, most
recently a book on the "Myth of the Blitzkrieg!" Of course
von Seeckt was not around to claim parenthood in 1939, having
died earlier.

I have seen some comment that the Germans studied DeGaulle`s own
writings on tank warfare and he was given some credit for the
"Blitzkrieg" tactic. MacArthur in the Fall of 1941, commented,
in an interview, that the Blitzkrieg tactic would probably not work well in
Russia (he said that as the Germans were at the doorsteps
of Moscow!) and China because of their huge land masses and
the ability of the defending power to retreat, leaving the
attacking enemy with an increasingly difficult logistic problem.

Of course the point I was pursuing in this exchange was
where the major action of retraining the Germany Armed forces
occurred in Russia, and I challenged the idea that training in Russia
was the principle contribution to the rebirth of German military
power. I would claim that it came mainly after Hitler came to
power and even then from 1935 on. That military people where
thinking before Hitler is a given, this occurred in the US
armed forces too in the tank tactics as well as the use
of air power. But there was little chance to implement ideas.
This is why the Russo-Finish war and the Spanish Civil
war assumed the proportions of real combat training.

Go Fig only raised the issue of the air force training and blamed it on
the Russian as if they were the root cause of the German military rebirth.
- see
also:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...rev/corum.html

I read this item too, but it did not provide me with the answers to
the issue Go Fig raised.

Earl

In article , Earl Evleth
wrote:

Go Fig only raised the issue of the air force training and blamed it on
the Russian as if they were the root cause of the German military rebirth.



that is NOT what I said, I said Russia reaped what it sowed!!

The root cause was article 231.

It must have been quite an accommodation for your wife all these years
to live with someone who con NOT admit they were wrong.

jay
Fri Jun 18, 2004