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(0T) A prayer for Fred
The following might make no sense to some people, to others it might.
Sorry about the cross post, and the off topic post. roland Hail Freyja; Would you be so kind; As to remove Loki's chaos from Fred's heart, soul and mind! He does not comprehend, kith and kin do not abide, people who disrupt the orlog, and wyrd of the world, May Thor protect his mind From Loki's chaos return to bind! \ | / /\ /\ \ | / / \ / \ \|/ \ / \ | \ \ / | \ / \ / | \ / \ / |
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(0T) A prayer for Fred
"piperut" wrote in message ups.com... The following might make no sense to some people, to others it might. Sorry about the cross post, and the off topic post. roland Hail Freyja; Would you be so kind; As to remove Loki's chaos from Fred's heart, soul and mind! He does not comprehend, kith and kin do not abide, people who disrupt the orlog, and wyrd of the world, May Thor protect his mind From Loki's chaos return to bind! \ | / /\ /\ \ | / / \ / \ \|/ \ / \ | \ \ / | \ / \ / | \ / \ / Roland Thanks for your kind thoughts. You have learned something about using the sign (OT). Very Good. You missed the class on Cross Posting, it is not allowed on Usenet, considered spam. Please re-read the "Guidelines". |
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(0T) A prayer for Fred
A qoute from the Netnews section of RFC 1855. The thing has not
changed over the years If you feel an article will be of interest to more than one Newsgroup, be sure to CROSSPOST the article rather than individually post it to those groups. In general, probably only five-to-six groups will have similar enough interests to warrant this. Cross posting to five to six groups is normally ok, more than that is considered spam. Cross posting the same message to a number to times to different groups is also considered spam. Fred, you need professional help! roland |
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(0T) A prayer for Fred
"piperut" wrote in message oups.com... Fred, you need professional help! roland Like you don't |
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(OT) On Crossposting (was (0T) A prayer for Fred)
piperut wrote: A qoute from the Netnews section of RFC 1855. The thing has not changed over the years If you feel an article will be of interest to more than one Newsgroup, be sure to CROSSPOST the article rather than individually post it to those groups. In general, probably only five-to-six groups will have similar enough interests to warrant this. Cross posting to five to six groups is normally ok, more than that is considered spam. Cross posting the same message to a number to times to different groups is also considered spam. Fred, you need professional help! roland You called, Sir? This is Professor Feeesh. I gave a very similar "crosspost lecture" to the "professionals" (statisticians) in three newsgroups (sci.stat.math, sci.stat.edu, and sci.stat.consult) in which I have crossposting "lectures" on how some of them (often the same ones in all three groups) have bungled and malpracticed the professional subjects in those groups, "statistics", as well as explaining how they should be done properly. This was what I said two days ago when some reader "separate posted" the same post in TWO of those three group, when it was actually most appropriate for the THIRD. I responded to his question by cross-posting it in all three of those groups after this preface: RF Cross-posting is perfectly valid for topics of interest to more RF than 1 group, Even for those who are against cross-posting, RF for whatever reason, it is generally agreed that "separate RF posting" of the same post in more than one group is WORSE, RF which is what you did, for some apparent reason, while my RF response is likely to be understood by tne readership of RF sci.stat.math (in which this topic is certainly of interest in RF relation to other regression topics being discussed in all RF three groups). Google has it's own unofficial SPAM-filter of outgoing posts. I was flamed by some jerk who used the name "Nassau_ Fishing_Pier", cross-posted in 10 newsgroups. It's only when I tried to REPLY (using google) that I discover such crossposts to over 5 groups, because groups.google does NOT allow anyone to cross-post to more than 5 groups. That is consistent with what roland said, Cross posting to five to six groups is normally ok, The COROLLARY to cross-posting is that one can CHOOSE how many groups to send one's follow-up to, and thus will get only follow-ups from those in the specific groups. Thus, I am posting this in rec.travel.cruises ONLY, because I have never posted or read from the other two groups, and don't care about reading follow-ups from those alt.religion.* groups. OTOH, I do expect to hear some NOISE, in several of hte groups I post, no matter what I post, from the Troll and our Dickhead Goldhaber, who both like to use the term "pond scum" while making the posts of vacuous content except their own scum. :-) Google now has a new feature of "view profile" with each posted message, giving the most recent posts of the author (from the time the current post was made), as well as the frequency of HISTORY of the author's post. For example, below are posts from my latest "profile" showing three different (related) topics in the three groups (all cross-posted) from my "view profile": # ROBUST REGRESSION sci.stat.edu 15 hours ago # Review of Frank Harrell's 9 Points posted in 1995 sci.stat.math 16 hours ago # Tips on Model Building via Multiple Regression. Part I (The Elbow Rule) sci.stat.consult 16 hours ag Roland's (piperut) profile showed that within the past 24 hours, he had made 9 posts in rec.travel.cruises, and 1 in alt.religion.druid and his "Post Activity" (kept by Google on only a few recent years) Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2000 5 9 1 2001 2 1 1 8 1 12 2002 7 5 2 2 1 1 2003 2 2 1 3 2004 2 5 5 5 3 7 18 8 8 19 27 4 2005 9 17 55 32 75 94 88 62 95 101 86 2006 53 67 Fred (wit his posting name "F") had the same number of posts (10, all in rec.travel.cruises) within the past 24 hours, but his 242 messages in 47 groups were distributed as: Post Activity Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1996 2 1 1997 3 1 1998 2 3 1 1999 1 1 1 8 2 1 5 2000 1 2 1 3 3 2001 1 5 2 12 2002 1 2003 2 2 2 2004 6 3 2 2005 6 4 21 2006 32 59 But Fred post more than THAT in rec.travel.cruises alone! That's true. But Fred posted under his real name "Fred Pimentel" in 1999-2001, and as "Fred" in 2004, and each has its different Post Activity summary by Google. Only Fred knows for sure how many other names with which he had posted. :-) Intrested in the profile of our resident SPAMMER Ray Goldenberg? Google profile showed that he SPAMMED only 8 times in rtc within the past 24 hours, but he SPEMMED in 18723 messages in 47 groups in: Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1996 27 100 64 115 164 153 111 1997 128 187 170 152 99 110 84 137 168 159 120 137 1998 136 147 176 165 96 134 177 95 157 133 123 165 1999 167 205 198 190 180 164 234 220 150 127 156 171 2000 146 260 125 166 269 299 281 340 158 320 235 269 2001 229 195 207 205 211 181 294 234 302 220 281 134 2002 288 206 214 223 174 186 184 134 157 151 128 146 2003 190 135 130 139 234 164 166 136 63 113 151 121 2004 116 162 168 225 118 138 161 142 181 91 75 80 2005 89 78 57 120 109 84 71 127 124 79 91 84 2006 117 91 Well, piperut (roland) and F (Fred), this is the "professional help" you get from the professor. :-) -- Bob. |
#6
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(OT) On Crossposting (was (0T) A prayer for Fred)
Reef Fish wrote: piperut wrote: A qoute from the Netnews section of RFC 1855. The thing has not changed over the years If you feel an article will be of interest to more than one Newsgroup, be sure to CROSSPOST the article rather than individually post it to those groups. In general, probably only five-to-six groups will have similar enough interests to warrant this. Cross posting to five to six groups is normally ok, more than that is considered spam. Cross posting the same message to a number to times to different groups is also considered spam. Fred, you need professional help! roland You called, Sir? This is Professor Feeesh. I gave a very similar "crosspost lecture" to the "professionals" (statisticians) in three newsgroups (sci.stat.math, sci.stat.edu, and sci.stat.consult) in which I have crossposting "lectures" on how some of them (often the same ones in all three groups) have bungled and malpracticed the professional subjects in those groups, "statistics", as well as explaining how they should be done properly. This was what I said two days ago when some reader "separate posted" the same post in TWO of those three group, when it was actually most appropriate for the THIRD. I responded to his question by cross-posting it in all three of those groups after this preface: RF Cross-posting is perfectly valid for topics of interest to more RF than 1 group, Even for those who are against cross-posting, RF for whatever reason, it is generally agreed that "separate RF posting" of the same post in more than one group is WORSE, RF which is what you did, for some apparent reason, while my RF response is likely to be understood by tne readership of RF sci.stat.math (in which this topic is certainly of interest in RF relation to other regression topics being discussed in all RF three groups). Google has it's own unofficial SPAM-filter of outgoing posts. I was flamed by some jerk who used the name "Nassau_ Fishing_Pier", cross-posted in 10 newsgroups. It's only when I tried to REPLY (using google) that I discover such crossposts to over 5 groups, because groups.google does NOT allow anyone to cross-post to more than 5 groups. That is consistent with what roland said, Cross posting to five to six groups is normally ok, The COROLLARY to cross-posting is that one can CHOOSE how many groups to send one's follow-up to, and thus will get only follow-ups from those in the specific groups. Thus, I am posting this in rec.travel.cruises ONLY, because I have never posted or read from the other two groups, and don't care about reading follow-ups from those alt.religion.* groups. OTOH, I do expect to hear some NOISE, in several of hte groups I post, no matter what I post, from the Troll and our Dickhead Goldhaber, who both like to use the term "pond scum" while making the posts of vacuous content except their own scum. :-) It was my oversight that I forgot to name the infamous net-Troll Gregory Morrow, aka Greg Morrow, who used to be a trolling partner of the toothless EvelynVogtGamble (Divamanque), as described in "Greg and Evelyn -- two Trolls that pass in the night". Greggie's latest posts are all in rec.food.cooking, which is why he is "full of it" all the time. If you click the "All 37 groups -- 4236 messages" banner in his google "profile", you'll get those groups But he Trolls from gregorymorrow in his earthlink address also and it has "All 60 groups -- 1564 messages" It's under that list you find rec.travel.air, rec.travel.europe, rec.travel.cruises, and other travel groups. Greggie Morrow diversified his TROLLING by trolling with different names and from different ISPs -- and you have to know all his TROLL aliases before you can find many of his trolling scums. Perhaps Dr. Nomen should do a profile of Gregory Morrow like the job he did on Voight or JF, giving all the alias under which Greg Trolls. This is a needed Addendum for Greggie, rec.travel.cruises is how one of his home base from which to cast trolls. You all know Dickhead Goldhaber of cousse, except his daughter Danni, who fakes (while giggling behind her keyboard) that she doesn;t know who Dickhead is (in one post) and then claims she is not Dickhead's keeper in another. Fred is Danni's favorate poster in rec.travel.cruises. :-)) -- Bob. Google now has a new feature of "view profile" with each posted message, giving the most recent posts of the author (from the time the current post was made), as well as the frequency of HISTORY of the author's post. For example, below are posts from my latest "profile" showing three different (related) topics in the three groups (all cross-posted) from my "view profile": # ROBUST REGRESSION sci.stat.edu 15 hours ago # Review of Frank Harrell's 9 Points posted in 1995 sci.stat.math 16 hours ago # Tips on Model Building via Multiple Regression. Part I (The Elbow Rule) sci.stat.consult 16 hours ag Roland's (piperut) profile showed that within the past 24 hours, he had made 9 posts in rec.travel.cruises, and 1 in alt.religion.druid and his "Post Activity" (kept by Google on only a few recent years) Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2000 5 9 1 2001 2 1 1 8 1 12 2002 7 5 2 2 1 1 2003 2 2 1 3 2004 2 5 5 5 3 7 18 8 8 19 27 4 2005 9 17 55 32 75 94 88 62 95 101 86 2006 53 67 Fred (wit his posting name "F") had the same number of posts (10, all in rec.travel.cruises) within the past 24 hours, but his 242 messages in 47 groups were distributed as: Post Activity Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1996 2 1 1997 3 1 1998 2 3 1 1999 1 1 1 8 2 1 5 2000 1 2 1 3 3 2001 1 5 2 12 2002 1 2003 2 2 2 2004 6 3 2 2005 6 4 21 2006 32 59 But Fred post more than THAT in rec.travel.cruises alone! That's true. But Fred posted under his real name "Fred Pimentel" in 1999-2001, and as "Fred" in 2004, and each has its different Post Activity summary by Google. Only Fred knows for sure how many other names with which he had posted. :-) Intrested in the profile of our resident SPAMMER Ray Goldenberg? Google profile showed that he SPAMMED only 8 times in rtc within the past 24 hours, but he SPEMMED in 18723 messages in 47 groups in: Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1996 27 100 64 115 164 153 111 1997 128 187 170 152 99 110 84 137 168 159 120 137 1998 136 147 176 165 96 134 177 95 157 133 123 165 1999 167 205 198 190 180 164 234 220 150 127 156 171 2000 146 260 125 166 269 299 281 340 158 320 235 269 2001 229 195 207 205 211 181 294 234 302 220 281 134 2002 288 206 214 223 174 186 184 134 157 151 128 146 2003 190 135 130 139 234 164 166 136 63 113 151 121 2004 116 162 168 225 118 138 161 142 181 91 75 80 2005 89 78 57 120 109 84 71 127 124 79 91 84 2006 117 91 Well, piperut (roland) and F (Fred), this is the "professional help" you get from the professor. :-) -- Bob. |
#7
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(OT) On Crossposting (was (0T) A prayer for Fred)
Reef Fish wrote: piperut wrote: When I made this post, following the posts cross-posted in two other alt.religion.* groups, I thought Roland and Fred were just squabbling over some RELIGIOUS issues in those religious groups. So I merely addressed the "crossposting" aspect of those posts. A qoute from the Netnews section of RFC 1855. The thing has not changed over the years Neither has the meaning of someone SPAMMING in ngs. I wasn't aware until much later that Roland and Fred were feuding over the worse spammer in USENET, Ray Goldenberger! Fred wins hands down. Ray is one of the rare spamming monsters that survived in any newsgroups. He started his posting history as the real SPAMMER, posting his spams about his travel agency in various travel ngs. Presumably he was kicked out by the other groups that he finally found refuge in rec.travel.cruises which has become more or less his home base for SPAMMING. Some readers of rec.travel.cruises are also readers of one or more scuba diving newgroups. If Ray Goldenberg pulls his "I have this news release from anybody ... to bait readers to use his travel agency, and post the same thing in a group like rec.scuba or rec.scuba.locations he would have been laughed or flamed out of those groups within a week, for his obvious, thinly disguised SPAMS. If you feel an article will be of interest to more than one Newsgroup, be sure to CROSSPOST the article rather than individually post it to those groups. In general, probably only five-to-six groups will have similar enough interests to warrant this. Cross posting to five to six groups is normally ok, more than that is considered spam. Cross posting the same message to a number to times to different groups is also considered spam. Fred, you need professional help! roland You called, Sir? This is Professor Feeesh. I gave a very similar "crosspost lecture" to the "professionals" (statisticians) in three newsgroups (sci.stat.math, sci.stat.edu, and sci.stat.consult) in which I have crossposting "lectures" on how some of them (often the same ones in all three groups) have bungled and malpracticed the professional subjects in those groups, "statistics", as well as explaining how they should be done properly. This was what I said two days ago when some reader "separate posted" the same post in TWO of those three group, when it was actually most appropriate for the THIRD. I responded to his question by cross-posting it in all three of those groups after this preface: RF Cross-posting is perfectly valid for topics of interest to more RF than 1 group, Even for those who are against cross-posting, RF for whatever reason, it is generally agreed that "separate RF posting" of the same post in more than one group is WORSE, RF which is what you did, for some apparent reason, while my RF response is likely to be understood by tne readership of RF sci.stat.math (in which this topic is certainly of interest in RF relation to other regression topics being discussed in all RF three groups). Google has it's own unofficial SPAM-filter of outgoing posts. I was flamed by some jerk who used the name "Nassau_ Fishing_Pier", cross-posted in 10 newsgroups. It's only when I tried to REPLY (using google) that I discover such crossposts to over 5 groups, because groups.google does NOT allow anyone to cross-post to more than 5 groups. That is consistent with what roland said, Cross posting to five to six groups is normally ok, The COROLLARY to cross-posting is that one can CHOOSE how many groups to send one's follow-up to, and thus will get only follow-ups from those in the specific groups. Thus, I am posting this in rec.travel.cruises ONLY, because I have never posted or read from the other two groups, and don't care about reading follow-ups from those alt.religion.* groups. OTOH, I do expect to hear some NOISE, in several of hte groups I post, no matter what I post, from the Troll and our Dickhead Goldhaber, who both like to use the term "pond scum" while making the posts of vacuous content except their own scum. :-) Google now has a new feature of "view profile" with each posted message, giving the most recent posts of the author (from the time the current post was made), as well as the frequency of HISTORY of the author's post. For example, below are posts from my latest "profile" showing three different (related) topics in the three groups (all cross-posted) from my "view profile": # ROBUST REGRESSION sci.stat.edu 15 hours ago # Review of Frank Harrell's 9 Points posted in 1995 sci.stat.math 16 hours ago # Tips on Model Building via Multiple Regression. Part I (The Elbow Rule) sci.stat.consult 16 hours ag Roland's (piperut) profile showed that within the past 24 hours, he had made 9 posts in rec.travel.cruises, and 1 in alt.religion.druid and his "Post Activity" (kept by Google on only a few recent years) Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2000 5 9 1 2001 2 1 1 8 1 12 2002 7 5 2 2 1 1 2003 2 2 1 3 2004 2 5 5 5 3 7 18 8 8 19 27 4 2005 9 17 55 32 75 94 88 62 95 101 86 2006 53 67 Fred (wit his posting name "F") had the same number of posts (10, all in rec.travel.cruises) within the past 24 hours, but his 242 messages in 47 groups were distributed as: Post Activity Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1996 2 1 1997 3 1 1998 2 3 1 1999 1 1 1 8 2 1 5 2000 1 2 1 3 3 2001 1 5 2 12 2002 1 2003 2 2 2 2004 6 3 2 2005 6 4 21 2006 32 59 But Fred post more than THAT in rec.travel.cruises alone! That's true. But Fred posted under his real name "Fred Pimentel" in 1999-2001, and as "Fred" in 2004, and each has its different Post Activity summary by Google. Only Fred knows for sure how many other names with which he had posted. :-) Not knowing piperut (because I am not into the rtc politics) is a fan of Ray Goldenberg, and that he had been feuding with Fred over Ray, I posted Ray's spamming history, as given by the newest groups.google option to "view profile" of posters. Intrested in the profile of our resident SPAMMER Ray Goldenberg? Google profile showed that he SPAMMED only 8 times in rtc within the past 24 hours, but he SPEMMED in 18723 messages in 47 groups in: Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 1996 27 100 64 115 164 153 111 1997 128 187 170 152 99 110 84 137 168 159 120 137 1998 136 147 176 165 96 134 177 95 157 133 123 165 1999 167 205 198 190 180 164 234 220 150 127 156 171 2000 146 260 125 166 269 299 281 340 158 320 235 269 2001 229 195 207 205 211 181 294 234 302 220 281 134 2002 288 206 214 223 174 186 184 134 157 151 128 146 2003 190 135 130 139 234 164 166 136 63 113 151 121 2004 116 162 168 225 118 138 161 142 181 91 75 80 2005 89 78 57 120 109 84 71 127 124 79 91 84 2006 117 91 Well, piperut (roland) and F (Fred), this is the "professional help" you get from the professor. :-) -- Bob. In the mid 1990s there were some SPAMMERS in rec.scuba who were not nearly as blatent as Ray, and after several years of campaign to rid those "cretins", let by Jim Greenlee, Chuck Norad, and a few others, with slogans like BOYCOTT CRETINS THAT RUDELY ADVERTISE IN USENET DISCUSSION GROUPS and BOYCOTT BUSINESSES THAT RUDELY ADVERTISE IN USENET DISCUSSION GROUPS rec.scuba has become a spam-free group beause as soon as someone tries to spam there, he would have been told by the old-timers that he is not welcome in that group and that he would LOSE more business than he could gain by spamming there. That's the way it SHOULD be, according all Netiquette Tips and Roadmaps. Having read rec.travel.cruises for a year or three now, never have I seen so many spammed by so few and tolerated by so many. For whatever Roland and Fred were quibbling about, Fred was spot on when he told Roland that Ray Goldenberg should take SPAMS to marketing ngs for selling Ray's goods or spams. -- Bob. |
#8
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(OT) On Crossposting (was (0T) A prayer for Fred)
In article .com,
"Reef Fish" wrote: In the mid 1990s there were some SPAMMERS in rec.scuba who were not nearly as blatent as Ray, and after several years of campaign to rid those "cretins", let by Jim Greenlee, Chuck Norad, and a few others, with slogans like BOYCOTT CRETINS THAT RUDELY ADVERTISE IN USENET DISCUSSION GROUPS and BOYCOTT BUSINESSES THAT RUDELY ADVERTISE IN USENET DISCUSSION GROUPS rec.scuba has become a spam-free group beause as soon as someone tries to spam there, he would have been told by the old-timers that he is not welcome in that group and that he would LOSE more business than he could gain by spamming there. That's the way it SHOULD be, according all Netiquette Tips and Roadmaps. Having read rec.travel.cruises for a year or three now, never have I seen so many spammed by so few and tolerated by so many. For whatever Roland and Fred were quibbling about, Fred was spot on when he told Roland that Ray Goldenberg should take SPAMS to marketing ngs for selling Ray's goods or spams. -- Bob. Hi, Bob. Since it is too cold for golf, I decided to go over to this relatively spam free group rec.scuba. You are right, there really is little spam there. But the troll level is unreal! If I didn't know I was in a scuba group, I'd think I was in a political group. Heck an honest spammer wouldn't even be noticed there! ;-) Lloyd |
#9
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(OT) On Crossposting (was (0T) A prayer for Fred)
Reef Fish wrote:
Having read rec.travel.cruises for a year or three now, never have I seen so many spammed by so few and tolerated by so many. For whatever Roland and Fred were quibbling about, Fred was spot on when he told Roland that Ray Goldenberg should take SPAMS to marketing ngs for selling Ray's goods or spams. -- Bob. Bob, You are attempting to put words in my mouth. I was pointing out to Ray, (and other travel agents that post on rtc) by posting a link to RFC 1855 that his .sig file belonged as the last four lines of his post, not in the middle of the text as he is doing. Fred came unglued, started in on me for off topic posts, and asked why I was not all over Ray for posting what he calls spam. Now, if you read the charter for the newsgroup, and the RFC, there is something about covert vs. overt advertising by travel agents in it. Fred likes to attempt to confuse the issue by throwing out qoutes from a charter he has made up, not the charter for the group that was voted on. ..sig files are a time honored traditon of Usenet, and Fred has problems with them. I was makeing an attempt at informing the travel agents to put them back in place. Fred came unglued. Fred seems to have a problem with me from over the years. I have a few ideas why. roland |
#10
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(OT) On Crossposting (was (0T) A prayer for Fred)
"piperut" wrote in message oups.com... Reef Fish wrote: Having read rec.travel.cruises for a year or three now, never have I seen so many spammed by so few and tolerated by so many. For whatever Roland and Fred were quibbling about, Fred was spot on when he told Roland that Ray Goldenberg should take SPAMS to marketing ngs for selling Ray's goods or spams. -- Bob. Bob, You are attempting to put words in my mouth. I was pointing out to Ray, (and other travel agents that post on rtc) by posting a link to RFC 1855 that his .sig file belonged as the last four lines of his post, not in the middle of the text as he is doing. Fred came unglued, started in on me for off topic posts, and asked why I was not all over Ray for posting what he calls spam. Now, if you read the charter for the newsgroup, and the RFC, there is something about covert vs. overt advertising by travel agents in it. Fred likes to attempt to confuse the issue by throwing out qoutes from a charter he has made up, not the charter for the group that was voted on. .sig files are a time honored traditon of Usenet, and Fred has problems with them. I was makeing an attempt at informing the travel agents to put them back in place. Fred came unglued. Fred seems to have a problem with me from over the years. I have a few ideas why. roland So tell us why??????????? And While your at it, does this like like a piece of your work: "Don, people on USENET really don't care what you post. The problem we have with what you have posted is it is not on topic for any of the groups you have posted it to." "You should have posted this to one of the talk.politics groups. There it would have been on topic." "There may also be local groups for New Orleans and New York. It would have been on topic in those groups." "It is not on topic in rec.travel.cruises, rec.travel.caribbean, al.toys.gi-joe, or alt.autos.subaru." "Just post in the proper groups." "roland" PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH |
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