An evening in Windsor / My first rude Canadian border guard

I was in Detroit on business, so I thought I'd go over to Windsor and
take advantage of the exchange rates, and walk along the waterfront.
(Best view of Detroit is supposed to be from Canada.)

Oh, yes, and protest the stupid US boycott of Cuban products that has
kept Castro in power all these years, I bought a nice fat Cuban cigar
and blew the communistic smoke over the river. 'Course, I would have
preferred to be able to blow the smoke over to south Florida where the
Cuban-American right-wingers are dictating our foriegn policy. But
that's another topic.

Well, I met my first rude Canadian 'migra man on this trip. No doubt
many of you are laughing, having ample experience with rude Canadian
border functionaries, but I cross over to Canada periodically, and
until
now, every Canadian official I've dealt with has been exceptionally
polite, in contrast to the US inspectors, whose salaries I actually
help
pay with my taxes. (Courtesy on the part of US inspectors is, for me,
about a 50-50 proposition, the odds increasing if my family is along.)

Anyway, I did this on the spur of the moment and my documentation
consisted of my U.S. Government ID Card (I'm a career civil servant),
my
driver's license and voter's card (not Michigan, however.)

This was not adequate for the Candian 'migra man, however. He started
giving me guff about how non-US citizens can serve in the US Armed
forces (true, that's how my grandpa got his US citizensip), but he was
uninformed about Executive Order 11935 requiring US citizenship for
appointment to a job in the competitive civil service. He asked me
"what about landed immigrants, they can work for the government?"
Well,
maybe they can in Canada, but

(1) we don'thave "landed immigrants" in the US, we have "permanent
residents" (yeah, I'm being geeky about that, but a Canadian
customs/'migra man guarding the US border should know the correct
terminology, just like his US counterpart should know what a "landed
immigrant" is),

and (2) , as I've mentioned, non-citizens can't get the vast majority
of
US government jobs. (One exception: residents American Samoa or
Swain's island, wherever that is, who are US nationals, not citizens,
are eligible for civil service jobs. But it's pretty obvious I'm not
from American Samoa.)

And, he would only accept a voter's card from Michigan. I guess to be
a
US citizen you have to be able to vote in Michigan.

OK, it's true, my government ID doesn't specify that my position is
competitive civil service. So I didn't have absolute proof, and,
true,
non-citizens can get some US government jobs (I think the clerical
help
at the US embassy in Ottawa might be mostly Canadian). But, here I
am,
speaking with an ovious American accent, driving a car with American
tags, and having US photo ID (my driver's license) that I'm sure he
could pull up on his computer and find out if I'm wanted by law
enforcement, sure it's not 100% proof, but it's 99.9 percent, this
'migra man was just out to be rude and pull a power trip.

He made his point by asking me a sort of trick question: "Do you have
a
passport?" So I answer yes, but it's expired, which would be good
enough, apparently. So then he asks, "When did you last use your
passport?" So I say, when I went to England. The he asks, why did I
take it to England and not going to Canada? So I fall for the bait
and
say becuase I was going abroad. "Gotcha! " he says, "You're going
'abroad' when you come to Canada, too." Of course, I should have said
I
took it because I was going _overseas_.

He obviously had a chip on his shoulder about arrogant Yankees who
think
that Canada is part of the USA. But in the end, he just took my
driver's license and entered the number into a computer so I'm
apparently on some kind of watch list of arrogant clueless Yankee
tourists who think they own the world, and the next time I come to
Canada, I had better have my passport with me, even if it's expired.
I
think that if I do, I'll use the one issued to me in 1971 to see if
the
'migra man can recognize my face behind the shoulder-length hair in
the
photo.

After all that, he let me loose into Windsor, which is good, because I
had visions of being sent back and then refused admittance to the US
because I didn't have proof of citizenship, and I'd still be driving
back and forth under the Detroit River to this day. Hovever, I was so
****ed off, I didn't feel like blowing a lot of money on a big dinner
and thereby help pay the guy's salary with the GST, so I went to a
schwarma place on the main drag and got a halal schwarma and Coke for
less than $5 Canadian, an incredible bargain; the same lunch in
Washington would cost you at least $8 US. And it was good schwarma,
better than the middle eastern food they sell in Detroit, almost as
good
as the schwarma at Max's in Wheaton, Maryland, which is my North
American reference point for schwarma.

Oh, and I don't think racism was an issue, although, being Jewish, I
do
look a little like an Arab, I suppose; though an Arab with blue eyes
and
reddish highlights in my hair.

Oh, and I had no problem getting back into the US, my government ID
worked fine, except that the 'migra man there wanted to know all sorts
of things about my business trip to Detroit. His courtesy level was
middling, though once he told me to proceed, he was friendlier,
reminding me to take care in the Detroit traffic.

I hate these damn border functionaries. I wonder if the US and Canada
could work out a deal like the countries in the EU have, where people
cross border with a minimum or no formalities. Then they could
reassign all those 'migra men to doing something more useful, like
checking shipping containers coming into ports.

"Abe Kouris" wrote in message
om...

...rant snipped....

Abe, you would argue with a billboard if given the chance.

Talk about a professional kvetch !

To do so they would have to come to some agreement on border control.
The Canadians would be concerned about the lack of any real control on
the southern border of the US while the US would wonder about some of
the folks that the Canadians are willing to let in. It's not likely.

Abe Kouris wrote:

snip
I hate these damn border functionaries. I wonder if the US and Canada
could work out a deal like the countries in the EU have, where people
cross border with a minimum or no formalities. Then they could
reassign all those 'migra men to doing something more useful, like
checking shipping containers coming into ports.

"Abe Kouris" schreef in bericht
om...
snip rant

You decided to visit another country without having the proper
documentation. After an interview, they let you enter the country. So why do
you complain?

Sjoerd

Sjoerd wrote:

"Abe Kouris" schreef in bericht
om...
snip rant

You decided to visit another country without having the proper
documentation. After an interview, they let you enter the country. So why do
you complain?


Maybe it's because we aren't used to the sort of nitpicking that has been going
on for the last few years. I live about 15 km from the US border and was used to
travelling back and forth for many years without any picture ID.

On 2 May 2004 05:17:51 -0700, (Abe Kouris) wrote:

I was in Detroit on business, so I thought I'd go over to Windsor and
take advantage of the exchange rates, and walk along the waterfront.
(Best view of Detroit is supposed to be from Canada.)

Oh, yes, and protest the stupid US boycott of Cuban products that has
kept Castro in power all these years, I bought a nice fat Cuban cigar
and blew the communistic smoke over the river. 'Course, I would have
preferred to be able to blow the smoke over to south Florida where the
Cuban-American right-wingers are dictating our foriegn policy. But
that's another topic.

Well, I met my first rude Canadian 'migra man on this trip. No doubt
many of you are laughing, having ample experience with rude Canadian
border functionaries, but I cross over to Canada periodically, and
until
now, every Canadian official I've dealt with has been exceptionally
polite, in contrast to the US inspectors, whose salaries I actually
help
pay with my taxes. (Courtesy on the part of US inspectors is, for me,
about a 50-50 proposition, the odds increasing if my family is along.)

Anyway, I did this on the spur of the moment and my documentation
consisted of my U.S. Government ID Card (I'm a career civil servant),
my
driver's license and voter's card (not Michigan, however.)

Shame on you for showing a Government ID Card,you better check your
agency out on that,
As a retired Government Executive , I can safely say that is a
violation of Government Policy and regulation.
finite
This was not adequate for the Candian 'migra man, however. He started
giving me guff about how non-US citizens can serve in the US Armed
forces (true, that's how my grandpa got his US citizensip), but he was
uninformed about Executive Order 11935 requiring US citizenship for
appointment to a job in the competitive civil service. He asked me
"what about landed immigrants, they can work for the government?"
Well,
maybe they can in Canada, but

(1) we don'thave "landed immigrants" in the US, we have "permanent
residents" (yeah, I'm being geeky about that, but a Canadian
customs/'migra man guarding the US border should know the correct
terminology, just like his US counterpart should know what a "landed
immigrant" is),

and (2) , as I've mentioned, non-citizens can't get the vast majority
of
US government jobs. (One exception: residents American Samoa or
Swain's island, wherever that is, who are US nationals, not citizens,
are eligible for civil service jobs. But it's pretty obvious I'm not
from American Samoa.)

And, he would only accept a voter's card from Michigan. I guess to be
a
US citizen you have to be able to vote in Michigan.

OK, it's true, my government ID doesn't specify that my position is
competitive civil service. So I didn't have absolute proof, and,
true,
non-citizens can get some US government jobs (I think the clerical
help
at the US embassy in Ottawa might be mostly Canadian). But, here I
am,
speaking with an ovious American accent, driving a car with American
tags, and having US photo ID (my driver's license) that I'm sure he
could pull up on his computer and find out if I'm wanted by law
enforcement, sure it's not 100% proof, but it's 99.9 percent, this
'migra man was just out to be rude and pull a power trip.
Look at the basic requirements at end of page.

He made his point by asking me a sort of trick question: "Do you have
a
passport?" So I answer yes, but it's expired, which would be good
enough, apparently. So then he asks, "When did you last use your
passport?" So I say, when I went to England. The he asks, why did I
take it to England and not going to Canada? So I fall for the bait
and
say becuase I was going abroad. "Gotcha! " he says, "You're going
'abroad' when you come to Canada, too." Of course, I should have said
I
took it because I was going _overseas_.

He obviously had a chip on his shoulder about arrogant Yankees who
think
that Canada is part of the USA. But in the end, he just took my
driver's license and entered the number into a computer so I'm
apparently on some kind of watch list of arrogant clueless Yankee
tourists who think they own the world, and the next time I come to
Canada, I had better have my passport with me, even if it's expired.
I
think that if I do, I'll use the one issued to me in 1971 to see if
the
'migra man can recognize my face behind the shoulder-length hair in
the
photo.

After all that, he let me loose into Windsor, which is good, because I
had visions of being sent back and then refused admittance to the US
because I didn't have proof of citizenship, and I'd still be driving
back and forth under the Detroit River to this day. Hovever, I was so
****ed off, I didn't feel like blowing a lot of money on a big dinner
and thereby help pay the guy's salary with the GST, so I went to a
schwarma place on the main drag and got a halal schwarma and Coke for
less than $5 Canadian, an incredible bargain; the same lunch in
Washington would cost you at least $8 US. And it was good schwarma,
better than the middle eastern food they sell in Detroit, almost as
good
as the schwarma at Max's in Wheaton, Maryland, which is my North
American reference point for schwarma.

Oh, and I don't think racism was an issue, although, being Jewish, I
do
look a little like an Arab, I suppose; though an Arab with blue eyes
and
reddish highlights in my hair.

Oh, and I had no problem getting back into the US, my government ID
worked fine, except that the 'migra man there wanted to know all sorts
of things about my business trip to Detroit. His courtesy level was
middling, though once he told me to proceed, he was friendlier,
reminding me to take care in the Detroit traffic.

I hate these damn border functionaries. I wonder if the US and Canada
could work out a deal like the countries in the EU have, where people
cross border with a minimum or no formalities. Then they could
reassign all those 'migra men to doing something more useful, like
checking shipping containers coming into ports.

Crossing the International Border between Canada and the United States
requires inspection by Immigration & Customs, which will include a
vehicle inspection. You will need personal identification documents,
which differ depending on your citizenship. American and Canadian
citizens need proof of citizenship, such as: a certified birth
certificate PLUS a photo id (such as a driver's license); or a
passport. A child without a passport, or who is not included on a
parent's passport, must have a birth certificate, and if not the child
of the adults accompanying them, a letter from the parents (with
telephone and address contact information) is required. Citizens of
other countries may be required to have a passport and/or visa.

On Sun, 02 May 2004 22:43:30 -0400, 127.0.0.1 wrote:

On Mon, 3 May 2004 00:32:48 +0200, "Sjoerd"
wrote:


"Abe Kouris" schreef in bericht
.com...
snip rant

You decided to visit another country without having the proper
documentation. After an interview, they let you enter the country. So why do
you complain?

he had sufficient documents, the immigration guy was busting his balls


He did not have sufficient documents. He did not have one of the
documents recognized as proof of citizenship. Although you can argue
that his other documents did in fact prove that he was a U.S. citizen,
they are not "approved" ones. Thus I don't think it was unreasonable
for the immigration guy to give him a hard time. Rememvber he was
actually allowed in - I'm sure that in similar circumstances the U.S.
immigration would just turn him back.

Richard Hall writes:
He [Abe Kouris] did not have sufficient documents. He did not have
one of the documents recognized as proof of citizenship.

I was surprised at this, as I thought I'd read that a voter registration
card was recognized proof of US citizenship -- and the Canadian agent
did tell Abe that he would have accepted his voter registration card
*if it had been from Michigan*. So I went to the Citizenship and
Immigration Canada (CIC) web site to see what it said.

I was again surprised when I couldn't find *anything* on the site that
was addressed to travelers and told US citizens which documents they
were supposed to have to prove their citizenship. But I did find this
page http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/transporters/section2.html,
which is addressed to transportation companies, and does provide such
a list of documents (in section 2.4). Richard is right -- a voter
registration card is not on the list. I guess if that there is a
policy in Windsor of accepting ones from Michigan, it's just a local
pragmatic rule.

Although you can argue that his other documents did in fact prove
that he was a U.S. citizen, they are not "approved" ones. Thus I
don't think it was unreasonable for the immigration guy to give him
a hard time. Rememvber he was actually allowed in ...

I basically agree with this, although there would still no reason for
the guard to be rude unless Abe was rude to him first. And if CIC is
going to take the position that some documents people would think are
proofs of citizenship don't count, they ought to publicize it better.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "...one man's feature is another man's bug."
--Chris Torek

My text in this article is in the public domain.

So your documentations are not in order, and this guy dared to ask you
questions? Damn Canadian, let's boycott them!

BTW, I have my share of rude immigration officials the world over. No
country has a monopoly. They all go to the same charm school.


"Abe Kouris" wrote in message
om...
I was in Detroit on business, so I thought I'd go over to Windsor and
take advantage of the exchange rates, and walk along the waterfront.
(Best view of Detroit is supposed to be from Canada.)

Oh, yes, and protest the stupid US boycott of Cuban products that has
kept Castro in power all these years, I bought a nice fat Cuban cigar
and blew the communistic smoke over the river. 'Course, I would have
preferred to be able to blow the smoke over to south Florida where the
Cuban-American right-wingers are dictating our foriegn policy. But
that's another topic.

Well, I met my first rude Canadian 'migra man on this trip. No doubt
many of you are laughing, having ample experience with rude Canadian
border functionaries, but I cross over to Canada periodically, and
until
now, every Canadian official I've dealt with has been exceptionally
polite, in contrast to the US inspectors, whose salaries I actually
help
pay with my taxes. (Courtesy on the part of US inspectors is, for me,
about a 50-50 proposition, the odds increasing if my family is along.)

Anyway, I did this on the spur of the moment and my documentation
consisted of my U.S. Government ID Card (I'm a career civil servant),
my
driver's license and voter's card (not Michigan, however.)

This was not adequate for the Candian 'migra man, however. He started
giving me guff about how non-US citizens can serve in the US Armed
forces (true, that's how my grandpa got his US citizensip), but he was
uninformed about Executive Order 11935 requiring US citizenship for
appointment to a job in the competitive civil service. He asked me
"what about landed immigrants, they can work for the government?"
Well,
maybe they can in Canada, but

(1) we don'thave "landed immigrants" in the US, we have "permanent
residents" (yeah, I'm being geeky about that, but a Canadian
customs/'migra man guarding the US border should know the correct
terminology, just like his US counterpart should know what a "landed
immigrant" is),

and (2) , as I've mentioned, non-citizens can't get the vast majority
of
US government jobs. (One exception: residents American Samoa or
Swain's island, wherever that is, who are US nationals, not citizens,
are eligible for civil service jobs. But it's pretty obvious I'm not
from American Samoa.)

And, he would only accept a voter's card from Michigan. I guess to be
a
US citizen you have to be able to vote in Michigan.

OK, it's true, my government ID doesn't specify that my position is
competitive civil service. So I didn't have absolute proof, and,
true,
non-citizens can get some US government jobs (I think the clerical
help
at the US embassy in Ottawa might be mostly Canadian). But, here I
am,
speaking with an ovious American accent, driving a car with American
tags, and having US photo ID (my driver's license) that I'm sure he
could pull up on his computer and find out if I'm wanted by law
enforcement, sure it's not 100% proof, but it's 99.9 percent, this
'migra man was just out to be rude and pull a power trip.

He made his point by asking me a sort of trick question: "Do you have
a
passport?" So I answer yes, but it's expired, which would be good
enough, apparently. So then he asks, "When did you last use your
passport?" So I say, when I went to England. The he asks, why did I
take it to England and not going to Canada? So I fall for the bait
and
say becuase I was going abroad. "Gotcha! " he says, "You're going
'abroad' when you come to Canada, too." Of course, I should have said
I
took it because I was going _overseas_.

He obviously had a chip on his shoulder about arrogant Yankees who
think
that Canada is part of the USA. But in the end, he just took my
driver's license and entered the number into a computer so I'm
apparently on some kind of watch list of arrogant clueless Yankee
tourists who think they own the world, and the next time I come to
Canada, I had better have my passport with me, even if it's expired.
I
think that if I do, I'll use the one issued to me in 1971 to see if
the
'migra man can recognize my face behind the shoulder-length hair in
the
photo.

After all that, he let me loose into Windsor, which is good, because I
had visions of being sent back and then refused admittance to the US
because I didn't have proof of citizenship, and I'd still be driving
back and forth under the Detroit River to this day. Hovever, I was so
****ed off, I didn't feel like blowing a lot of money on a big dinner
and thereby help pay the guy's salary with the GST, so I went to a
schwarma place on the main drag and got a halal schwarma and Coke for
less than $5 Canadian, an incredible bargain; the same lunch in
Washington would cost you at least $8 US. And it was good schwarma,
better than the middle eastern food they sell in Detroit, almost as
good
as the schwarma at Max's in Wheaton, Maryland, which is my North
American reference point for schwarma.

Oh, and I don't think racism was an issue, although, being Jewish, I
do
look a little like an Arab, I suppose; though an Arab with blue eyes
and
reddish highlights in my hair.

Oh, and I had no problem getting back into the US, my government ID
worked fine, except that the 'migra man there wanted to know all sorts
of things about my business trip to Detroit. His courtesy level was
middling, though once he told me to proceed, he was friendlier,
reminding me to take care in the Detroit traffic.

I hate these damn border functionaries. I wonder if the US and Canada
could work out a deal like the countries in the EU have, where people
cross border with a minimum or no formalities. Then they could
reassign all those 'migra men to doing something more useful, like
checking shipping containers coming into ports.

Richard wrote:

On Sun, 02 May 2004 22:43:30 -0400, 127.0.0.1 wrote:


On Mon, 3 May 2004 00:32:48 +0200, "Sjoerd"
wrote:


"Abe Kouris" schreef in bericht
e.com...
snip rant

You decided to visit another country without having the proper
documentation. After an interview, they let you enter the country. So why do
you complain?

he had sufficient documents, the immigration guy was busting his balls

He did not have sufficient documents. He did not have one of the
documents recognized as proof of citizenship. Although you can argue
that his other documents did in fact prove that he was a U.S. citizen,
they are not "approved" ones. Thus I don't think it was unreasonable
for the immigration guy to give him a hard time. Rememvber he was
actually allowed in - I'm sure that in similar circumstances the U.S.
immigration would just turn him back.

And just where is this list of documents that are required. I have seen
lists of examples of documents but never one which claimed to be
comprehensive.