Americans waited 9 hours at GIG to be fingerprinted.

I was actually planning to go to Rio later this year. Only 35k
Continental FF miles for a free ticket. Not that anyone has been able
to convince me it is actually possible to find an available flight to
anywhere on Continental using FF miles. But if it was possible I was
planning to go to Rio.

I am assuming Brazil will get over there silly little hissy fit before
then and either discontinue collecting the useless boxes of
fingerprints that will only fill their warehouses and landfills or
else at least come up with an efficient way of collecting the useless
fingerprints. I really could care less if my fingerprints are in a
box in a warehouse in Brazil. It is a trivial matter to me. But no
way would I spend 9 hours waiting to get through immigration. I'd
definitely cancel my trip over that sort of nonsense. If I'm not
welcome, my feelings won't be hurt. I'll just go someplace else.

BTW, the Brazilian government only has themselves to blame for the
predicament Brazilian citizens find themselves in. If the Brazilian
government hadn't had such a long history of corruption and gross
mismanagement of the Brazilian economy I am sure Brazil would easily
find itself on the list of nations that are exempted from the new U.S.
procedures. But when the whole nation is ruled by a bunch incompetent
crooks they can't expect to be treated the same as nations with less
corrupt governments.

The whole thing is really quite childish.

------------------------------------------------------------

Rio de Janeiro files suit over program singling out U.S. tourists
Knight Ridder Newspapers


RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - The city of Rio de Janeiro will file a
lawsuit Wednesday demanding an end to Brazil's new practice of
fingerprinting and photographing U.S. tourists, Mayor Cesar Maia
announced Tuesday.

Maia said the procedures, ordered by a Brazilian federal judge who was
angered by new U.S. screening of Brazilian visitors, discriminate
against Americans by treating them differently from other foreign
visitors. In addition, Maia contended that Brazil's federal
government, not a judge, should be setting the country's immigration
policies.

"It is the country that loses because of this infantile anti-American
policy," Maia said in an e-mail in response to questions from Knight
Ridder.

City lawyers will seek immediate suspension of the judge's order,
saying it harms Rio's business and tourism interests and usurps
federal powers. The city will seek compensation for damages if the
order isn't overturned.

The move came after Brazilian Federal Police officials, unprepared for
their new fingerprinting and photographing duties, took as long as
nine hours on Monday to process bleary-eyed U.S. citizens who'd
arrived on overnight flights to Brazil from New York and Miami.

That treatment drew a protest from the U.S. Embassy in Brasilia.

"We regret the way in which new procedures have suddenly been put in
place that single out U.S. citizens for exceptional treatment," said
spokesman Wesley Carrington. He said they were causing "lengthy
delays" for Americans entering Brazil.

That's a big problem for Rio, which in the post-Christmas season tries
to welcome about 1,300 Americans a day to Brazilian summer south of
the equator.

American and Canadian tourists numbered about 220,000 and spent an
estimated $255 million in the city last year. The new screening
threatens that business and hurts Rio's image as a modern, welcoming
destination for tourists, said Paulo Bastos, the city's undersecretary
for tourism.

"These people are not giving a positive message about our city. That's
why the city is getting involved," Bastos said. "This measure was
hastily improvised. It prejudices our ability to attract new
visitors."

Julier Sebastiao da Silva, a federal judge in rural Mato Grosso state,
ordered the intensified Brazilian screening on Dec. 30. Da Silva
likened the visitor-screening rules that took effect at 115 U.S.
airports on Monday to Nazi German practices. The new rules require
Brazilians and residents of more than 150 other foreign countries to
be fingerprinted and photographed electronically as they enter the
United States. The process takes seconds, and the information goes
into broad anti-terror and illegal immigration databanks.

U.S. Homeland Security officials believe at least two of the hijackers
involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks might have been snagged
had the new system been in place.

Brazilian Federal Police spokesman Bruno Ramos justified the new
procedures for U.S. visitors, saying Americans posed special risks for
trafficking drugs and women and stealing wildlife from the Amazon. He
declined to elaborate.

Brazilian Foreign Ministry officials want their country included among
27 mostly European countries that are exempted from the new U.S.
procedures. Those countries are deemed by Washington to have
sufficient internal security controls.

For the past three years, Brazil has ranked fifth in deportations from
the United States. U.S. authorities deported 2,854 Brazilians in the
fiscal year that ended on Sept. 31, 2003, 152 of them following
criminal activity, according to Homeland Security's citizenship and
immigration division.

Only Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador had more nationals
deported.

Homeland Security figures indicate that the number of Brazilians in
the United States illegally jumped from 3,100 in the 2002 fiscal year
to 5,240 in the 2003 fiscal year that ended Sept. 30.




(my note. That last paragraph is quoted as I found it but the figures
are obviously missing a few zeros.)

The move came after Brazilian Federal Police officials, unprepared for
their new fingerprinting and photographing duties, took as long as
nine hours on Monday to process bleary-eyed U.S. citizens who'd
arrived on overnight flights to Brazil from New York and Miami.

This was completely predictable.

That treatment drew a protest from the U.S. Embassy in Brasilia.

"We regret the way in which new procedures have suddenly been put in
place that single out U.S. citizens for exceptional treatment," said
spokesman Wesley Carrington. He said they were causing "lengthy
delays" for Americans entering Brazil.

Hang on a minute.

I can deplore the Brazilian immigration authorities fingerprinting US
international arrivals, because I've never supported this kind of
procedure.

The US embassy, however, is in no position to deplore this, because it
represents a country which does exactly the same thing. Sauce for the
goose and all that.
--
Simon Elliott
http://www.ctsn.co.uk/

In article ,
Simon Elliott wrote:

The move came after Brazilian Federal Police officials, unprepared for
their new fingerprinting and photographing duties, took as long as
nine hours on Monday to process bleary-eyed U.S. citizens who'd
arrived on overnight flights to Brazil from New York and Miami.

This was completely predictable.

That treatment drew a protest from the U.S. Embassy in Brasilia.

"We regret the way in which new procedures have suddenly been put in
place that single out U.S. citizens for exceptional treatment," said
spokesman Wesley Carrington. He said they were causing "lengthy
delays" for Americans entering Brazil.

Hang on a minute.

I can deplore the Brazilian immigration authorities fingerprinting US
international arrivals, because I've never supported this kind of
procedure.

The US embassy, however, is in no position to deplore this, because it
represents a country which does exactly the same thing. Sauce for the
goose and all that.

I agree with that, though the US embassy is probably within reasonable
grounds to complain that Brazil needs to speed up the entry process. 9
hours is just silly. Perhaps something symbolic, such as declaring the
Brazilian judge that ordered the photography Persona Non Grata in the US
would be more appropriate.

Vareck Bostrom writes

"We regret the way in which new procedures have suddenly been put in
place that single out U.S. citizens for exceptional treatment," said
spokesman Wesley Carrington. He said they were causing "lengthy
delays" for Americans entering Brazil.

Hang on a minute.

I can deplore the Brazilian immigration authorities fingerprinting US
international arrivals, because I've never supported this kind of
procedure.

The US embassy, however, is in no position to deplore this, because it
represents a country which does exactly the same thing. Sauce for the
goose and all that.

I agree with that, though the US embassy is probably within reasonable
grounds to complain that Brazil needs to speed up the entry process. 9
hours is just silly.

Point taken, although it might be prudent for the US embassy in Brazil
to wait till the US system has been up and running for a while. They
would look pretty silly if they complained about delays in the Brazilian
process, only to find that there were also some long delays in the US.
New systems and new procedures often take a little while to shake down.

Perhaps something symbolic, such as declaring the
Brazilian judge that ordered the photography Persona Non Grata in the US
would be more appropriate.

That would just prolong the silly game of tit for tat.

If it wasn't for the fact that I'm not much in favour of any country
fingerprinting international arrivals, I'd suggest that the US
immigration authority offers to lease its fingerprint management
technology to Brazil. That way, everybody wins:

1/ The (doubtless US) company which implemented the system in the US
makes more profit.

2/ Economies of scale makes the system cheaper to implement in the US.

3/ US citizens won't have to wait for hours when entering Brazil

4/ The Brazilian tourist industry won't be damaged.

5/ The Brazilians authorities get to do something useful with the
fingerprint data.

6/ The US administration can effectively say: "Hey, other countries are
fingerprinting international arrivals, and they are using our systems to
do it. What's all the fuss about?"

--
Simon Elliott
http://www.ctsn.co.uk/

In article ,
Simon Elliott wrote:

Vareck Bostrom writes

"We regret the way in which new procedures have suddenly been put in
place that single out U.S. citizens for exceptional treatment," said
spokesman Wesley Carrington. He said they were causing "lengthy
delays" for Americans entering Brazil.

Hang on a minute.

I can deplore the Brazilian immigration authorities fingerprinting US
international arrivals, because I've never supported this kind of
procedure.

The US embassy, however, is in no position to deplore this, because it
represents a country which does exactly the same thing. Sauce for the
goose and all that.

I agree with that, though the US embassy is probably within reasonable
grounds to complain that Brazil needs to speed up the entry process. 9
hours is just silly.

Point taken, although it might be prudent for the US embassy in Brazil
to wait till the US system has been up and running for a while. They
would look pretty silly if they complained about delays in the Brazilian
process, only to find that there were also some long delays in the US.
New systems and new procedures often take a little while to shake down.

I'm not sure what the average non-citizen delay into the US is. Arriving
at Miami once from Spain I noticed the citizen vs non-citizen areas were
sort of glass-walled off from each other, I walked right up to one of
eight or so passport control officers in the citizen area with no delay
at all (I guess I was the only citizen arriving in that batch of
flights?) while the non-citizen area of approximately the same area was
packed, seemingly wall to wall, with people waiting to go through. This
was before the fingerprinting and photography, and it doesn't seem like
it could have been all that fast to go through that line.


Perhaps something symbolic, such as declaring the
Brazilian judge that ordered the photography Persona Non Grata in the US
would be more appropriate.

That would just prolong the silly game of tit for tat.

Yes, but rather than hurting all Brazilians as doing something like
canceling student visas or H1B (high tech work) visas would do, this
just symbolically attacks the one person that the Americans view as
causing the problem. It's just symbolic.


If it wasn't for the fact that I'm not much in favour of any country
fingerprinting international arrivals, I'd suggest that the US
immigration authority offers to lease its fingerprint management
technology to Brazil. That way, everybody wins:

1/ The (doubtless US) company which implemented the system in the US
makes more profit.

2/ Economies of scale makes the system cheaper to implement in the US.

3/ US citizens won't have to wait for hours when entering Brazil

4/ The Brazilian tourist industry won't be damaged.

5/ The Brazilians authorities get to do something useful with the
fingerprint data.

6/ The US administration can effectively say: "Hey, other countries are
fingerprinting international arrivals, and they are using our systems to
do it. What's all the fuss about?"

Good idea.

Vareck Bostrom writes
Point taken, although it might be prudent for the US embassy in Brazil
to wait till the US system has been up and running for a while. They
would look pretty silly if they complained about delays in the Brazilian
process, only to find that there were also some long delays in the US.
New systems and new procedures often take a little while to shake down.

I'm not sure what the average non-citizen delay into the US is. Arriving
at Miami once from Spain I noticed the citizen vs non-citizen areas were
sort of glass-walled off from each other, I walked right up to one of
eight or so passport control officers in the citizen area with no delay
at all (I guess I was the only citizen arriving in that batch of
flights?) while the non-citizen area of approximately the same area was
packed, seemingly wall to wall, with people waiting to go through. This
was before the fingerprinting and photography, and it doesn't seem like
it could have been all that fast to go through that line.

I don't know either. I've not visited the US for some time, and my two
visits way back in 1996 wouldn't be statistically significant. (FWIW:
entered the US at DFW, very short queues, no problem with immigration
even though I had Yemeni, Egyptian and Libyan stamps in my passport.)

Perhaps something symbolic, such as declaring the
Brazilian judge that ordered the photography Persona Non Grata in the US
would be more appropriate.

That would just prolong the silly game of tit for tat.

Yes, but rather than hurting all Brazilians as doing something like
canceling student visas or H1B (high tech work) visas would do, this
just symbolically attacks the one person that the Americans view as
causing the problem. It's just symbolic.

Why would the US wish to penalise the Brazilian judge for implementing a
similar procedure to that being introduced by the US? The US has taken
the standpoint that fingerprinting of international arrivals is
acceptable.

--
Simon Elliott
http://www.ctsn.co.uk/

rk writes
From the quote it's not clear that they are deploring the
fingerprinting. It's not worded the best.

You'd hope that diplomats would be clearer in their use of language. I
wonder if Mr. Carrington's comments were misquoted or taken out of
context.

But it appears that they
are deploring the way it is done, that it was put together hastily
(there was no suprise with the US system and if I recall correctly
they had a pilot program in place to iron out the bugs), and that it
contributed to delays of up to 9 hours. That clearly is
"exceptional treatment" and I would say that is a reasonable
statement.

A 9 hour delay for immigration is clearly unacceptable anywhere.

I haven't read or saw interviews of those sort of delays on the US
side of things. And there have been a lot of stories before this
was put in place with the point that the contribution to delays
would in fact be minimal, a small number of seconds. Clearly, the
technology being used is consistent with minimum delays. While
there have been no shortage of stories in the media about delays in
airports for security procedures over the past 2+ years, this wasn't
one of them.

Let's see how the US system stands up to real use in a real environment
for the next few months.

--
Simon Elliott
http://www.ctsn.co.uk/

I am assuming Brazil will get over there silly little hissy fit

As compared to Bush's silly little hissy fit? Also, the correct
word to use in your sentence is their not there.

I really could care less if my fingerprints are in a box

The correct expression is, I couldn't care less. Saying it your
way makes you sound like an ignorant kid.

no way would I spend 9 hours waiting to get through immigration.

An airport worse than SVO, amazing.


Casey

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:05:13 -0800, * wrote:


BTW, the Brazilian government only has themselves to blame for the
predicament Brazilian citizens find themselves in. If the Brazilian
government hadn't had such a long history of corruption and gross
mismanagement of the Brazilian economy I am sure Brazil would easily
find itself on the list of nations that are exempted from the new U.S.
procedures. But when the whole nation is ruled by a bunch incompetent
crooks they can't expect to be treated the same as nations with less
corrupt governments.

Hmmm...

Talk about superficial cliches...


The whole thing is really quite childish.

Sure. About as much as the US thing.

Kind of funny the way these guys are reacting. I don't believe for a
minute this poster ever intended going to Brazil.

Oh well.

"Simon Elliott" wrote in message
...

Why would the US wish to penalise the Brazilian judge for implementing a
similar procedure to that being introduced by the US? The US has taken
the standpoint that fingerprinting of international arrivals is
acceptable.

is there any guarantee that the prints will be destroyed when the passenger
is found not to be a suspect?